- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
That's what the smiley faces are for Mike. 
Are We Wasting Our Effort?
- Thread starter rounder
- Start date
- Status
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 6,725
- Points
- 1,160
Cannonfodder, I didn't offer any solutions because I don't have any. Fixing Afghanistan isn't in my lane.
Agreed you did not specifically "advocate that children turn in hand grenades" however as a soldier who has been there you ought to realise that a very large portion of people who would turn in munitions as per your example would infact be children. Aside from the negative supply and demand issue that would result, people playing around with explosives is just bad all around. No doubt you would also be paying $100 for antique weapons from before the Russians were there- it just doesn't seem like a very effective solution. Like I said I don't have a solution. I think Canadians in Afghanistan doing what they are doing right now is going to 'fix' it for lack of a better word.
Use common sense. You came on a military forum and started sharing your perspective about shitty leadership in the CF without giving us a credible backround. As a former soldier you should well know that you need to put your money where your mouth is when it comes to this. You might as well have been a 13 year old who regurgitates what he's read on forums.
Your military experience allows you to rightly comment on leadership in the CF, though depending on when you got out your perspective might be a little dated. Traveling the world gives you a good perspective about terrorism though what's going on in Afghanistan and Iraq is probably different than 'terrorism' in Africa or such so it depends where you've been.
I'd even say the terrorism found in Afghanistan is different than whats found in Iraq. I still think it's impossible to say exactly what causes terrorism in a single word IE desperation.
Agreed you did not specifically "advocate that children turn in hand grenades" however as a soldier who has been there you ought to realise that a very large portion of people who would turn in munitions as per your example would infact be children. Aside from the negative supply and demand issue that would result, people playing around with explosives is just bad all around. No doubt you would also be paying $100 for antique weapons from before the Russians were there- it just doesn't seem like a very effective solution. Like I said I don't have a solution. I think Canadians in Afghanistan doing what they are doing right now is going to 'fix' it for lack of a better word.
Use common sense. You came on a military forum and started sharing your perspective about shitty leadership in the CF without giving us a credible backround. As a former soldier you should well know that you need to put your money where your mouth is when it comes to this. You might as well have been a 13 year old who regurgitates what he's read on forums.
Your military experience allows you to rightly comment on leadership in the CF, though depending on when you got out your perspective might be a little dated. Traveling the world gives you a good perspective about terrorism though what's going on in Afghanistan and Iraq is probably different than 'terrorism' in Africa or such so it depends where you've been.
I'd even say the terrorism found in Afghanistan is different than whats found in Iraq. I still think it's impossible to say exactly what causes terrorism in a single word IE desperation.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
My 2 cents,
I'm sure that the soldiers of today realize the risks that they are asked to take. They probably don't care about the politics of things, only that they look out for each other as they take on missions, and do the best they can do with what they are given. There were quite a few Canadian killed in the 911 blasts, and so we are there to seek out those responsible for this heinous act and all who follow that philosophy, with the hope of eradicating these so called "terrorist" (cowards) We will take casualties and some will die, but that is the nature of war, and that is what this is...war.
Gnplummer421
I'm sure that the soldiers of today realize the risks that they are asked to take. They probably don't care about the politics of things, only that they look out for each other as they take on missions, and do the best they can do with what they are given. There were quite a few Canadian killed in the 911 blasts, and so we are there to seek out those responsible for this heinous act and all who follow that philosophy, with the hope of eradicating these so called "terrorist" (cowards) We will take casualties and some will die, but that is the nature of war, and that is what this is...war.
Gnplummer421
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
gnplummer421 said:
Jeezus, you should work for Public Affairs with lines like that!
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
What I dont want to see is a prolonged deployment that see our troops static and vulnerable . It is a slippery slope when you start taking an offensive role . We will need to increasingly rely on Americans for our intelligence , our military does not have soldier translators , this reliance on Americans for information can be the cause of some severe mistakes . We want to play ball but unfortunately we lack the proper equipment to make well informed decisions , leadership should recognize this and remedy the situation .
The frontline soldiers will bear the effects of this eagernous to get involved in a situation that we may not fully comprehend and are fully equipped to deal with . An adequate concensus needs to be taken of how we should approach this situation. A dialogue needs to be established with Iran and there participation however scary to the US is pivotal in securing the security of Afghanistan . By the way , I have been to Iran and it is not as scary a place as the US media would portray . Muslim participation is fundemental to any solution .
The frontline soldiers will bear the effects of this eagernous to get involved in a situation that we may not fully comprehend and are fully equipped to deal with . An adequate concensus needs to be taken of how we should approach this situation. A dialogue needs to be established with Iran and there participation however scary to the US is pivotal in securing the security of Afghanistan . By the way , I have been to Iran and it is not as scary a place as the US media would portray . Muslim participation is fundemental to any solution .
- Reaction score
- 20,792
- Points
- 1,260
FWIW - to add some fact to this discussion...
The UN has DDR folk (Disarmament, Demobilization, Reintergration) - local Afghanis, and from ones I have seen typically older Mujahadeen who fought the soviets - out in the territories/provinces that are buying up weapons from the populace. This is workign in a lot of areas (some folk here will know where my experience with this issue comes from...)
However there are BRAND NEW Iranian made AK-47/AKM rifles that are being supplies to the insurgent populace for FREE. Given that some will obviously be mercenary, and have sold these weapons on the market (hint I've seen them still in packing grease). However there are tons more and readily available new ones get delivered regularily. Some are Chinese but most ones I have seen recvently are Iranian (not just AK's but larger more sophisticated systems too - some even "alledge" MANPADS...).
Naturally any top down approach forced upon the populace will not work - however the US ARG (Afghan Reconstruction Group) is working in concert with many NGO's, the UN, and coalition military to provide a safe and secure environment so that reconstruction can take place.
This is a parallel the the CF/Cdn Gov't Triple D concept.
Cannonfodder - your arguments wrt what happend in Crotia/Bosnia are not relevant in this issue.
The UN has DDR folk (Disarmament, Demobilization, Reintergration) - local Afghanis, and from ones I have seen typically older Mujahadeen who fought the soviets - out in the territories/provinces that are buying up weapons from the populace. This is workign in a lot of areas (some folk here will know where my experience with this issue comes from...)
However there are BRAND NEW Iranian made AK-47/AKM rifles that are being supplies to the insurgent populace for FREE. Given that some will obviously be mercenary, and have sold these weapons on the market (hint I've seen them still in packing grease). However there are tons more and readily available new ones get delivered regularily. Some are Chinese but most ones I have seen recvently are Iranian (not just AK's but larger more sophisticated systems too - some even "alledge" MANPADS...).
Naturally any top down approach forced upon the populace will not work - however the US ARG (Afghan Reconstruction Group) is working in concert with many NGO's, the UN, and coalition military to provide a safe and secure environment so that reconstruction can take place.
This is a parallel the the CF/Cdn Gov't Triple D concept.
Cannonfodder - your arguments wrt what happend in Crotia/Bosnia are not relevant in this issue.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
I don't want to offend or anything, but I'm under the understanding that our JTF2 operators and CSIS field officers are gathering quite a bit of intelligence over in A-stan. In addition, our surveillance equipment is state of the art, and I don't believe we rely on the yanks as much as you indicate. Sure we don't have as many resources as our friends to the South, but I'm pretty sure we do ok with intel. and our responce to that intel. To sum up, I think that as Canadians we are a multicultural society and I'm betting we probably have a few people in uniform who can get by with regards to translation.
Gnplummer421
Gnplummer421
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Cannonfodder, I have been reading you posts of this thread since you first began. My initial reaction was to tear you a new fifth point of contact but I realized that would be an emotional response not a rational one. In keeping with the guidelines of this site I have held my breath, gone for several long walks and have had a few late nights thinking of a way to properly respond So here it is..........
Death and dismemberment are permanent , let that sink in for a while . Yes you are right it has been a daily part of my life for the last twenty five years. I also recall one of my early battleschool lectures about being adaptive and using one's initiative. To this end I have received two degrees and am about to commence on a third. Besides, the academics I have about twenty years experience working in both the public and private sectors. In a varriety of occupations including some TI with a major IHO. When all the cameras are gone and these soldiers get on with there daily lives , ask them if it was worth it . Speaking from twenty five years worth of experience You Bet.This based on twenty five years worth of experience and it seems this has been the most asked question over these last twenty five years. In responding to the question most of my audiences have walked away with a new enlightenment on the out look of life, several have out right admitted that they could not have done it .Hey when your the best of the best 'the tough get going' Were doing a good job over there but let us qaulify and qauntify what we are doing .To this I do not have have enough first hand experience on but based on my experience (in country vs out country) my training and expertise saved the lives of four children, one adult and I lost two adults which in the intervening years I have finally realized yes there was nothing I could do to prevent there loss, a little more closure Clear objectives and timelines need to be in place before you take on any project . Ever heard the term over planning, you can arm chair quarter back almost anything to death or try and plan for every proverbial IF. A waste of time better spent trying to achieve ration goals based on the best intelligence at hand. Exposing your men to unspecified threat for for an unspecified time is irresponsible and unacceptable. No that is what most us understood when we accepted the Queen's shilling. Afterall Keegan describes battle as being a confrotation on a constantly fluid and changing environment. And for some of us the uncertain nature is addictive as drug, wrong no just a facet of human nature. The fact of the matter is that these incidents will continue because of mis guided leadership . Depends on who you are talking about. In the military purview there are numerous checks and balances some based on performance standards others per based. Occasionally as with any system the odd unsuitable will slip through. The USMC does have a term for this in which I believe they refer to the individual as a 'slimy basta*d' and as with the Canadian CF once discovered are sent packing.
I feel no need to put my military experience on the table[this I have to question, with some of us on the site it is done to establish their mark the same as a dog pissing on a tree a purly again human response, with me I like to see it so I can use it to properly frame a response to an inquiry] but I will tell you this , when the first bullet goes by your head , mortar round falls near you ,ask your self is this worth it ? Again here I am not based on experience to render an accurate opinion but from what I have learnt on this site and from taking the time to ask well thought out questions from various members, yes unaquivilby yes. Remember the people that have the most to gain , have the least to lose . As to this statement of yours I put it down to an emotional not rational thought response.
Now in regard to your last posts you are showing some rationality verses emotion well done. That is what I have come to find this site is about, rational well thought out debate rather than an emotional verbiage. You are right in expressing an opinion but base it on fact rather than a computation of 'old wives tales and second hand gossip'.
To another new member 'Meatpuppet' thank you for shorting your post to one syllable words and basic sentences. Your grammer spelling and punctuation was killing me. But it is not going to get you any further as I believe the guidelines state constructive posts.
My apologies to the site owner and the mod's for taking up more than my two cents. I will endeavor to be less eloquent in the future
Edit: spelling and grammer
Death and dismemberment are permanent , let that sink in for a while . Yes you are right it has been a daily part of my life for the last twenty five years. I also recall one of my early battleschool lectures about being adaptive and using one's initiative. To this end I have received two degrees and am about to commence on a third. Besides, the academics I have about twenty years experience working in both the public and private sectors. In a varriety of occupations including some TI with a major IHO. When all the cameras are gone and these soldiers get on with there daily lives , ask them if it was worth it . Speaking from twenty five years worth of experience You Bet.This based on twenty five years worth of experience and it seems this has been the most asked question over these last twenty five years. In responding to the question most of my audiences have walked away with a new enlightenment on the out look of life, several have out right admitted that they could not have done it .Hey when your the best of the best 'the tough get going' Were doing a good job over there but let us qaulify and qauntify what we are doing .To this I do not have have enough first hand experience on but based on my experience (in country vs out country) my training and expertise saved the lives of four children, one adult and I lost two adults which in the intervening years I have finally realized yes there was nothing I could do to prevent there loss, a little more closure Clear objectives and timelines need to be in place before you take on any project . Ever heard the term over planning, you can arm chair quarter back almost anything to death or try and plan for every proverbial IF. A waste of time better spent trying to achieve ration goals based on the best intelligence at hand. Exposing your men to unspecified threat for for an unspecified time is irresponsible and unacceptable. No that is what most us understood when we accepted the Queen's shilling. Afterall Keegan describes battle as being a confrotation on a constantly fluid and changing environment. And for some of us the uncertain nature is addictive as drug, wrong no just a facet of human nature. The fact of the matter is that these incidents will continue because of mis guided leadership . Depends on who you are talking about. In the military purview there are numerous checks and balances some based on performance standards others per based. Occasionally as with any system the odd unsuitable will slip through. The USMC does have a term for this in which I believe they refer to the individual as a 'slimy basta*d' and as with the Canadian CF once discovered are sent packing.
I feel no need to put my military experience on the table[this I have to question, with some of us on the site it is done to establish their mark the same as a dog pissing on a tree a purly again human response, with me I like to see it so I can use it to properly frame a response to an inquiry] but I will tell you this , when the first bullet goes by your head , mortar round falls near you ,ask your self is this worth it ? Again here I am not based on experience to render an accurate opinion but from what I have learnt on this site and from taking the time to ask well thought out questions from various members, yes unaquivilby yes. Remember the people that have the most to gain , have the least to lose . As to this statement of yours I put it down to an emotional not rational thought response.
Now in regard to your last posts you are showing some rationality verses emotion well done. That is what I have come to find this site is about, rational well thought out debate rather than an emotional verbiage. You are right in expressing an opinion but base it on fact rather than a computation of 'old wives tales and second hand gossip'.
To another new member 'Meatpuppet' thank you for shorting your post to one syllable words and basic sentences. Your grammer spelling and punctuation was killing me. But it is not going to get you any further as I believe the guidelines state constructive posts.
My apologies to the site owner and the mod's for taking up more than my two cents. I will endeavor to be less eloquent in the future
Edit: spelling and grammer
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
Gnplummer421,
This is too good! What planet did you beam down from?
- Reaction score
- 20,792
- Points
- 1,260
GP421 -- I'm not sure if that comment was aimed at me, but for all intensive purposes the Afghan gov't in conjunction with US ARG directs what is going on in Afghan.
The CF has members in similar postions (to ARG positioning) just tons less in the SAT (the members can expand on that if they wish).
The Coaltion has numerous avenues open to it. Keep in mind that the active Cdn AOR is tiny in respect to Afghan as a whole -
The CF has members in similar postions (to ARG positioning) just tons less in the SAT (the members can expand on that if they wish).
The Coaltion has numerous avenues open to it. Keep in mind that the active Cdn AOR is tiny in respect to Afghan as a whole -
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Why from the one beside Uranus called Myanus, but I think my molecules got scrambled when I materialized here on Earth, which hopefully explains my ramblings.. ;D
Gnplummer421
Gnplummer421
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Nope sorry it was response to Cannonfodder...don't mean any disrespect..I'm just opinionated, which gets me in trouble sometimes.
Cheers,
Gnplummer421
Cheers,
Gnplummer421
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
Kevin B , obviously you have never read what I wrote and are jumping to conclusions . At no time did I draw parallels between the Balkan wars and Afghanistan . I only stated my background upon being asked what my experiences were . There is no sure fire solution to Afghanistans problems however the only time we hear about Afghanistan is when something horrendous happens . Unfortunately it appears now that Afghanistan has some stability the international community feels no need to finish the job . The situation has been contained on to some where else . Conflicts may change , reasons why , background information , the end game is always to get the country back up and running .
NL_engineer
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Cannonfodder,
If money was the only problem in Afghanistan and Iraq, they would have been solved. Terrorism is not about money; look at the IRA, they are not all poor: FYI what do you think the Germins called the Resistance fighters during the second world war? If you look at any definition of terrorism money is not there. It will include oppression and maybe religion. If you look at some of the extream Islamic people they see us as infidels, if we gave them money they would probably throw it on the ground and spit on us.
Take a look at terrorism through out history, on all sides.
just to help here are some definitions: from Thorndike & Barnhart second edition.
just my 2 cents
edited because it posted before I was finished
If money was the only problem in Afghanistan and Iraq, they would have been solved. Terrorism is not about money; look at the IRA, they are not all poor: FYI what do you think the Germins called the Resistance fighters during the second world war? If you look at any definition of terrorism money is not there. It will include oppression and maybe religion. If you look at some of the extream Islamic people they see us as infidels, if we gave them money they would probably throw it on the ground and spit on us.
Take a look at terrorism through out history, on all sides.
just to help here are some definitions: from Thorndike & Barnhart second edition.
just my 2 cents
edited because it posted before I was finished
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Cannonfodder said:
There is no ultimate defence against every kind of IED: that is true. However, there are many different defenses against different types of IEDs. They are as effective as the training, equipment and professionalism of the troops who apply the measures. I can assure you if conditions in Afgh are anything like when I was there in 2004/05, as many IEDs are caught or fail, as actually kill anybody. The more effective the intelligence, the more active the patrolling, the closer the relationship with locals, the higher the chances of detecting and stopping the people who plan these things. Will we stop them all? No. But then, we couldn't stop all the Korean bullets in the 1950's, nor all the German bombs in the 1940's. In fact we've never been able to take away all the risk (or even most of the risk...) in alot of places we've served/ That's why it takes soldiers to carry out these tasks: they're dangerous. And that observation in no way cheapens the risks, sacrifices and losses we've taken in Afgh.
I suspect you have very little useful idea of what you are talking about: most of this last paragraph is, IMHO, just rubbish.
Cheers
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
PBI , what do you think will be achieved in the near , mid-term and long term future ? . Instead of running down others ideas offer some solutions . Defend the statusquoe no matter how screwed up , these IED incidents are unacceptable if the current leadership wants to increase its numbers while becoming more aggressive your building more pretexts for further incidents . Keep doing the same things and getting the same results , really smart . More training ? ,why dont you give the troops safety blankets ? , for all the good it will do . Irregulars are highly dangerous because of there unpredictable nature , training will help to a point but will only slightly reduce the risk .
There is no gameplan in the Canadian public for Afghanistan , if there was losses would be more easily accepted . I will get back to my previous statements that it appears our mission no matter how ambitious is mearly window dressing to gain favor with the US . In fact the will by the international community to finish the job in Afghanistan is waning , containment seems to be the end game .
Posturing in the media by the CDS is alarming , if you want to go to war , go to war , he just seems to be trying to score points with his troops . Exposure to risks with out clearly lined objectives is inherantly foolish , and yes a recipe for disaster. Funny how those who have never expierianced combat are so willing to commit others to the fray . Iam sure he will write a book about leadership after he retires , comment on military affairs on the CBC . How are you going to fight a ghost ? , no army has ever defeated a guerilla force , ever ... .
To say soldiers are aware of the risks after these incidents is condecending , a slap in the face . Risk awareness is one thing dealing with the results is another . I respect our soldiers as I was once one , they deal with some horrendous situations , they place there faith in the leadership and on this one I think the leadership is leading them into an ambush . Reason and logic are never involved in military decision making , we shall see the results .
Fortunately now that Iam no longer in the army I do not have to listen to the leadership of our military . The system rewards those that obey ,and punishes those that disobey . There in lies the conflict , a person will be reprimanded for making judgement calls that are in controvention to orders . Who suffers not the commanders they get posted to Ottawa and come back a bigger fish .
There is no gameplan in the Canadian public for Afghanistan , if there was losses would be more easily accepted . I will get back to my previous statements that it appears our mission no matter how ambitious is mearly window dressing to gain favor with the US . In fact the will by the international community to finish the job in Afghanistan is waning , containment seems to be the end game .
Posturing in the media by the CDS is alarming , if you want to go to war , go to war , he just seems to be trying to score points with his troops . Exposure to risks with out clearly lined objectives is inherantly foolish , and yes a recipe for disaster. Funny how those who have never expierianced combat are so willing to commit others to the fray . Iam sure he will write a book about leadership after he retires , comment on military affairs on the CBC . How are you going to fight a ghost ? , no army has ever defeated a guerilla force , ever ... .
To say soldiers are aware of the risks after these incidents is condecending , a slap in the face . Risk awareness is one thing dealing with the results is another . I respect our soldiers as I was once one , they deal with some horrendous situations , they place there faith in the leadership and on this one I think the leadership is leading them into an ambush . Reason and logic are never involved in military decision making , we shall see the results .
Fortunately now that Iam no longer in the army I do not have to listen to the leadership of our military . The system rewards those that obey ,and punishes those that disobey . There in lies the conflict , a person will be reprimanded for making judgement calls that are in controvention to orders . Who suffers not the commanders they get posted to Ottawa and come back a bigger fish .
- Reaction score
- 16,379
- Points
- 1,010
Umm, you may wish to do some reading about the British in Malaysia in the 1950's, dude.
Not that I expect you will, because you seem to have pretty much everything figured out and don't need any of us telling you how things are. Pretty much all that you want to do is argue. You are clearly not interested in thinking intelligently about anything that many of the posters on this board have to say. And many of them are actually, or have recently been on the ground, in Afghanistan. Most of them have been more polite to you than you deserve as you continue to rant about I'm not exactly sure what, except that IEDs are bad, the CDS is incompetent and if everyone in Afghanistan had a million dollars tomorrow, the world would be a safer place. Oh yeah, and guns are bad.
Have I about summed up your arguments, so far?
Good day to you, sir.
- Reaction score
- 6,300
- Points
- 1,360
Cannonfodder,
Well smart guy, give us your game plan.[ and not that stupid weapons buy-back thing, hell that can't work in TO for Pete's sake]
...and since I have no tours and was an NCO [therefore not tainted by ambition in your mind] my perception is WIDE open.
Well smart guy, give us your game plan.[ and not that stupid weapons buy-back thing, hell that can't work in TO for Pete's sake]
...and since I have no tours and was an NCO [therefore not tainted by ambition in your mind] my perception is WIDE open.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Cannonfodder,
Something you should consider doing is a study of terrorists and terrorism. You are patently wrong if you think economic disadvantage creates terrorists - the 19 who conducted the 9/11 attacks are instructive. A terrorist is made by a grievance and an ideology.
The soldiers are more aware of the risks than you think, and most are well aware of the reasons why we are there. That the Canadian public aren't aware (as you've amply demonstrated) of either the risks or the reasons is a reflection of the government - and it should be no surprise given the election.
Your broken record of insulting the CF leadership isn't impressing anyone here. "Reason and logic are never involved in military decision making...?" From where I sit the "reason and logic" deficit is more in your court.
I'm well to the north of 20 years service (in the Ranks, not as an officer) including as an Infantryman. I've seen most of the good and bad of CF leadership, commissioned and non-, up to some pretty high levels. I think your characterization is not only insulting, but wrong.
Something you should consider doing is a study of terrorists and terrorism. You are patently wrong if you think economic disadvantage creates terrorists - the 19 who conducted the 9/11 attacks are instructive. A terrorist is made by a grievance and an ideology.
The soldiers are more aware of the risks than you think, and most are well aware of the reasons why we are there. That the Canadian public aren't aware (as you've amply demonstrated) of either the risks or the reasons is a reflection of the government - and it should be no surprise given the election.
Your broken record of insulting the CF leadership isn't impressing anyone here. "Reason and logic are never involved in military decision making...?" From where I sit the "reason and logic" deficit is more in your court.
I'm well to the north of 20 years service (in the Ranks, not as an officer) including as an Infantryman. I've seen most of the good and bad of CF leadership, commissioned and non-, up to some pretty high levels. I think your characterization is not only insulting, but wrong.
- Reaction score
- 21,307
- Points
- 1,360
Cannonfodder said:
Cannonfodder...the only bit of your missive that is correct is the last bit about getting the country back up and running.
Read the news now and you will see that your earlier statement about the international community feeling no need to finish the job is ABSOLUTELY WRONG!
In seven days, Tony Blair will host President Karzai and Koffi Anan along with other world leaders in London to set out the future development path of Afghanistan. I have been working the last five months embedded directly into the Afghan government working on a project to develop Afghanistan, over the next 15 years, into a prosperous, contributing member of the global community. We have worked with Afghans developing a National Development Strategy ( see http://www.ands.gov.af ) to address both the short term development issues (the next five years), and the long term (by 2020) through aiming to achieve the UN Millennium Development Goals, MDGs.
3rd herd and others have more than adequately addressed your critique, so I won't go there.
It is through your own ignorance that you risk being placed on others "ignore list".....
Duey
- Status
Similar threads
