• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

CDN/US Covid-related political discussion

Jarnhamar

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
286
Points
880
I'm sorry, but I find it extremely hard to trust a single thing this government says, let alone promises. So until all those vaccines are delivered and in arms, I'll remain skeptical that trudeau can deliver anything.
As far as promises go it's a fairly easy one to make.
If companies don't deliver it's not the government's fault, it's the vaccine companies that failed to deliver.
 

Fishbone Jones

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
59
Points
530
I don't much trust Big Pharma either. In order for trudeau to hide behind malfeasance by the suppliers, he has to release the contracts, which he has so far resisisted. Really, there's not one single reason for him to with hold them from the Opposition. They are Canada's business. I would be tempted to say that those contracts will put the blame squarely in his lap. If he could throw Big Pharma under the bus, he would. That he hasn't, with all this heat on it, is telling in my books. Last I read, I believe the number was 59. 59th in the world for vaccinating their population. This is third world government stuff.
 

Altair

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
129
Points
680
I don't much trust Big Pharma either. In order for trudeau to hide behind malfeasance by the suppliers, he has to release the contracts, which he has so far resisisted. Really, there's not one single reason for him to with hold them from the Opposition. They are Canada's business. I would be tempted to say that those contracts will put the blame squarely in his lap. If he could throw Big Pharma under the bus, he would. That he hasn't, with all this heat on it, is telling in my books. Last I read, I believe the number was 59. 59th in the world for vaccinating their population. This is third world government stuff.
The third world has yet to receive a single vaccine.

Not saying Canada is covered in glory here, but don't make light of how the third world is getting the shaft right now.
 

Fishbone Jones

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
59
Points
530
The third world has yet to receive a single vaccine.

Not saying Canada is covered in glory here, but don't make light of how the third world is getting the shaft right now.
Didn't trudeau dip into the stock being put together for the underprivileged countries? I recall last week, modern countries, chastising him for it. Maybe he's part of the shafting you're speaking of. I'm also not making light of the third world countries. I'm comparing our current government with those running those other countries. And given how badly he's screwed up, the miniscule amount of vaccinations he's delivered, compared to our first world peers, might as well be none.
 

daftandbarmy

Army.ca Myth
Reaction score
759
Points
910
The third world has yet to receive a single vaccine.

Not saying Canada is covered in glory here, but don't make light of how the third world is getting the shaft right now.

Not so, according to the BBC:

South Africa has started Covid-19 vaccinations following the suspension of an earlier plan to use the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine.

 

Altair

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
129
Points
680

Altair

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
129
Points
680
Didn't trudeau dip into the stock being put together for the underprivileged countries? I recall last week, modern countries, chastising him for it. Maybe he's part of the shafting you're speaking of. I'm also not making light of the third world countries. I'm comparing our current government with those running those other countries. And given how badly he's screwed up, the miniscule amount of vaccinations he's delivered, compared to our first world peers, might as well be none.
There is might as well be none, and actually none.


The UN secretary general, António Guterres, has sharply criticised the “wildly uneven and unfair” distribution of Covid vaccines, saying 10 countries have administered 75% of all vaccinations and demanding a global effort to get all people in every country vaccinated as soon as possible.
The UN chief told a high-level meeting of the UN security council on Wednesday that 130 countries had not yet received a single dose of vaccine.

Say what you will of Canada, but we are getting SOME.
 

Good2Golf

Army.ca Legend
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
308
Points
980
There is might as well be none, and actually none.


Say what you will of Canada, but we are getting SOME.
No, FJ was referring to the Trudeau Government dipping into COVAX vaccine allocations intended for developing countries to make up for the shortfalls of its own vaccine procurements.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/09/canada-coronavirus-vaccine-covax-trudeau

'We're double-dipping': Trudeau pressured to speed vaccine distribution amid Covax backlash​

Government faces accusations it is taking Covid-fighting supplies intended for developing countries

Justin Trudeau is facing growing pressure to speed up Canada’s sluggish distribution of the coronavirus vaccine, as the country fends off accusations that it is taking supplies of the drug meant for developing countries.

The federal government drew sharp criticism last week when it announced that it would draw on Covax, a mechanism created to fairly distribute Covid-19 doses around the world, for its supply of the AstraZeneca vaccine.

Canada is entitled to receive shots through the Covax program, which uses advance purchases by wealthy nations to subsidise doses for poorer countries. But it had already completed a series of direct deals with pharmaceutical companies to secure its own supply, prompting accusations of “double-dipping”.

“Turning to Covax demonstrates the desperation of the Trudeau government in terms of its vaccine policy,” said Jillian Kohler, a University of Toronto professor focused on global access to medicines. “Taking [vaccine supply] from a multilateral institution that was designed particularly to help the world’s poor is shocking and an embarrassment.”
The decision prompted condemnation by other party leaders, who questioned the ethical implications of the decision and its effect on Canada’s global standing.

“We should not be double-dipping into this mechanism. It’s very bad for Canadians, it’s very bad for our image,” the Green party leader, Annamie Paul, told reporters.

Trudeau and his team have defended the move, saying that half of Canada’s $C440m investment was set aside for domestic supply. “Our contribution was always intended to access vaccine doses for Canadians as well as to support lower-income countries,” the prime minister said last week.

But Kohler, who previously developed global pharmaceutical policies for a number of UN organizations, said that the decision to draw on Covax reflected a broader domestic failure to secure a consistent vaccine supply.

Last year, Trudeau’s government made agreements with manufacturers that gave it one of the highest per-capita supplies of coronavirus vaccines in the world.

As the drugs finally roll out, however, Canada has been hit with delays. Last week, no vaccines arrived from Pfizer and the government expects a dip in Moderna’s shipments. As a result of shortages and domestic fumbles, Canada has only vaccinated 2.38% of its population, one of the lowest rates among developed nations.

Many of Canada’s vaccine woes are tied to the reality that it has no domestic production capacity. Other countries, including Brazil, Mexico, Australia and South Korea, have made deals with drug companies to produce their own supply, but all of Canada’s requests to licence domestic manufacturing have been rebuffed by drug companies.

The government has announced the development of a new domestic vaccine production facility, but it won’t become operational until 2022, and critics have questioned why investment in production wasn’t stepped up sooner.

Even Canada’s largest trading partner, the US, appears unwilling to help. Donald Trump signed an executive order that ensured the first 100m vaccines produced at Pfizer’s Michigan plant would go to Americans. His successor, Joe Biden, does not appear interested in reversing the policy, meaning Canada’s Pfizer supply must ship from Belgium.

Trudeau says Canada remains on track to get 6m doses of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines by the end of March and 20m in the spring.

But the recent stumbles have proven costly for the prime minister, who is considering the prospect of a spring election.
Until recently, Trudeau enjoyed widespread support for his government’s handling of the pandemic, scoring extra points for securing a large number of vaccine doses. But a recent pollfrom Angus Reid Institute found confidence in the vaccine rollout had dropped nearly 10 points over the last six weeks. Another survey found negative sentiment towards the government’s handling of the issue had jumped 19 points since mid-January.

“We’re dealing with a pandemic. People are dying, we have serious variants in Canada. This is not the time to be messing up on policy,” said Kohler. “It didn’t have to happen this way. It didn’t have to be this bad and this outrageous.”

This leads many to believe this is why Trudeau has been reticent to provincial Premiers refusing to provide contractual details of the vaccine contracts, as it will show the source of the vaccines to be coming in part from the allocations meant for the UN COVAX program:

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...to-receive-significant-haul-of-covid-vaccines

Canada takes Covid vaccines from Covax program despite side deals​

Country has already set up direct deals but is entitled to receive jabs from programme for poorer countries

Canada is set to receive a significant haul of vaccines over the next months through a platform designed to maximise supply to poor countries, according to a new forecast, despite reserving the most doses-per-person in the world through direct deals with pharmaceutical companies.

Chile and New Zealand, which have also made controversial side deals to secure their own vaccine supplies, will also receive hundreds of thousands of doses, according to the interim allocation schedule released by Covax on Wednesday.

Remainder of article at link


 

Altair

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
129
Points
680
No, FJ was referring to the Trudeau Government dipping into COVAX vaccine allocations intended for developing countries to make up for the shortfalls of its own vaccine procurements.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/09/canada-coronavirus-vaccine-covax-trudeau


This leads many to believe this is why Trudeau has been reticent to provincial Premiers refusing to provide contractual details of the vaccine contracts, as it will show the source of the vaccines to be coming in part from the allocations meant for the UN COVAX program:

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...to-receive-significant-haul-of-covid-vaccines
I know very well what FJ was alluding to, but it wasn't my point so I chose not to be derailed by it.

Canada started to receive doses in December, and despite the setbacks has managed to vaccinate 3.5 percent of the population.

While this is well behind other G20 nations, Israel and the gulf states, it is still something. Over a million people.

Meanwhile the third world, 130 nations have not received a single vaccine.

So to say something such as we are so far behind that we might as well have received none is insulting those who have actually received NONE.
 

mariomike

Army.ca Legend
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
104
Points
780
As this is a CDN/US Covid thread, for anyone interested in an update,

last updated: February 20, 2021,


Last updated: February 20, 2021

 

Good2Golf

Army.ca Legend
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
308
Points
980
I know very well what FJ was alluding to, but it wasn't my point so I chose not to be derailed by it.

Canada started to receive doses in December, and despite the setbacks has managed to vaccinate 3.5 percent of the population.

While this is well behind other G20 nations, Israel and the gulf states, it is still something. Over a million people.

Meanwhile the third world, 130 nations have not received a single vaccine.

So to say something such as we are so far behind that we might as well have received none is insulting those who have actually received NONE.
Ah, slick way to avoid addressing the issue of Canada’s troubled procurement, including drawing from COVAX orders to re-prioritize in support of Canada’s plans. Nice of us Canucks to be contributing to why some of those less-fortunate nations still have no vaccine.
#goteamred
 

Fishbone Jones

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
59
Points
530
Just over one million doses for 38 million people. Trump was vaccinating that many in one day and Biden is expanding that.
Hands down, trudeau flopped and to the detriment of our country.......again. Apologize all you want for him. The emperor has no clothes.
As far as trying to cancel me by saying I'm insulting third world countries, nothing is further from the truth. It's really nothing more than your imagination. However, I applaud your wokeness. It's something I have yet been able to wrap my head around.
 

Altair

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
129
Points
680
Just over one million doses for 38 million people. Trump was vaccinating that many in one day and Biden is expanding that.
Hands down, trudeau flopped and to the detriment of our country.......again. Apologize all you want for him. The emperor has no clothes.
As far as trying to cancel me by saying I'm insulting third world countries, nothing is further from the truth. It's really nothing more than your imagination. However, I applaud your wokeness. It's something I have yet been able to wrap my head around.
By just over you must mean 1.8 million doses.

And I'm not trying to cancel you, just pointing out there are countries out there that have actually received zero doses and would love 1.8 million while you're here spouting that Canada might as well have received none.

I'm not trying to cancel you, I'm saying you're suffering from first world problems. That somehow having enough vaccinations for every citizen by September is a third world pace, despite the third world probably still not haven gotten more than a small percentage of what they need come the fall.

I'm not defending this government, I'm just not blaming them. Pharmaceutical companies have screwed Europe to the point that they were about to be sued and they put in export laws in frustration. The Netherlands has only vaccinated 4 percent of the population, a little more than canada. France is at 5 percent, not that far ahead either. A lot of countries are having a hard time with this, canada being no exception.

That said, I don't remember the PM saying every Canadian was going to be vaccinated come March. He said September. So let's see how things are in September.
 

brihard

Army.ca Fixture
Mentor
Reaction score
472
Points
830
Canada has no significant domestic vaccine production. As such we're at the mercy of the market, including market distortions inflicted by other countries and trade blocs, protectionist 'me first' approaches by producing countries, etc. COVID being the emergency it is, everyone wants the vaccine at once with absolutely minimal lead time. Since we cannot produce it ourselves, we're pretty much up a creek.

Speaking of 'third world', as soon as we can approve Astra Zeneca, India's gonna send us a shitload of it. https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coron...cine-to-canada-in-less-than-a-month-1.5309665
 

Blackadder1916

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
117
Points
680
Ah, slick way to avoid addressing the issue of Canada’s troubled procurement, including drawing from COVAX orders to re-prioritize in support of Canada’s plans. Nice of us Canucks to be contributing to why some of those less-fortunate nations still have no vaccine.
#goteamred

Perhaps it was nice of us Canucks to pledge (and already pony up) nearly 10% of the initial funding for COVAX to provide those less fortunate nations with vaccines. That roughly quarter billion dollars doesn't include the $220 million we paid (months before this became an issue) in order to take advantage of the alternate source of vaccine as per the well published guidelines for the COVAX Facility.

How COVAX is supposed to work, including for those self-funding countries that already indicated they were going to buy some vaccines through that facility (e.g. Canada, and supposedly New Zealand and Singapore to date).

COMMITTED VS OPTIONAL PURCHASE​

Self-financing countries joining the COVAX Facility have two ways in which they can participate, through a Committed Purchase Arrangement or an Optional Purchase Arrangement.

As the name implies, self-financing countries opting for a Committed Purchase will need to make committed guarantees to procure an agreed volume of doses through the Facility. In exchange for this firm commitment these participants will be required to provide a lower upfront payment of US$ 1.60 per dose, or 15% of the total cost per dose. Under this type of agreement, participants are effectively committing to purchase a set number of vaccines that, once available, will be fairly and equitably allocated amongst participants. Countries will have the ability to opt out of purchasing a vaccine should the price of the vaccine be twice (or more) that which was expected.

For the Optional Purchase Arrangement, participants can choose to opt out of receiving any vaccine, without jeopardising their ability to receive their full share of doses of other candidates, subject to supply becoming available. This type of agreement may be more attractive to participants that already have bilateral agreements with manufacturers, through which they may already have secured sufficient doses of that particular vaccine.

The trade-off for these participants, who will have greater choice, is that they will be required to pay a higher proportion of the total cost per dose up front, making a down payment of US$ 3.10 per dose and a risk-sharing guarantee of US$ 0.40 per dose to help protect the Facility against any liabilities resulting from participants deciding not to purchase a particular vaccine candidate after the Facility has already entered into a contract with the manufacturer. Also, by opting out of vaccines that have been allocated to them and waiting for another to become available, these countries may inevitably experience a delay in receiving their full committed volume of vaccines. In the end, the total cost for the vaccines will be the same for the two options. As a pass-through facility, participants will pay the amount for the doses that was negotiated by the facility, plus a speed premium invested in accelerating and scale-up of manufacturing, as well as a very small fee for the operation of the facility. Some manufacturers will be providing vaccines at flat prices where others will be tiering the prices based upon income levels.

Canada had made their commitment for purchase through COVAX known back in September and provided $220 million as part of that agreement. Now that COVAX is spending that money, why shouldn't Canada receive a product that they have already paid for? Or else, give us back our money.

Some additional background on how COVAX works, expectations, pricing formulas, participation
 

Fishbone Jones

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
59
Points
530
Most of Trudeau's promises have fallen by the wayside. He has a huge tendency of ignoring them once he's made them. I can't think of one he's kept except his absolute balls up of his gun theft bill. So we wait til Sept to see if he kicks this one also? Betting on him fulfilling his promise is a mugs game. Why would he start keeping promises now?
I've used his vaccination program forecasting app to see when I'm eligible for the shot, based on us having all the vaccine we needed. It also said September, behind 23 million others, before his ineptitude screwed that up by blowing it with the ChiCom deal. Now we have all the rest of the non deliverables and you still think we'll be caught up by September? Good on you, I love your optimism. BTW, last figure I saw it was 1.38%, not 1.8%, but it may have moved in the last 48 hrs.

Anyway, I think I made my point. He can't be trusted to do as he says and he's made us a laughing stock amongst our allies and peers with his ineptitude. He's the ultimate micro manager. Unfortunately for us, he hasn't a clue what he's doing, even while trying to do everything himself.

He's dropping in the polls like a lead weight because of his handling of the vaccination roll out. That's a lot of people that think he's not doing very well on this file.
 
Last edited:

brihard

Army.ca Fixture
Mentor
Reaction score
472
Points
830
Most of Trudeau's promises have fallen by the wayside. He has a huge tendency of ignoring them once he's made them. I can't think of one he's kept except his absolute balls up of his gun theft bill. So we wait til Sept to see if he kicks this one also? Betting on him fulfilling his promise is a mugs game. Why would he start keeping promises now?
I've used his vaccination program forecasting app to see when I'm eligible for the shot, based on us having all the vaccine we needed. It also said September, behind 23 million others, before his ineptitude screwed that up by blowing it with the ChiCom deal. Now we have all the rest of the non deliverables and you still think we'll be caught up by September? Good on you, I love your optimism. BTW, last figure I saw it was 1.38%, not 1.8%, but it may have moved in the last 48 hrs.

Anyway, I think I made my point. He can't be trusted to do as he says and he's made us a laughing stock amongst our allies and peers with his ineptitude. He's the ultimate micro manager. Unfortunately for us, he hasn't a clue what he's doing, even while trying to do everything himself.

He's dropping in the polls like a lead weight because of his handling of the vaccination roll out. That's a lot of people that think he's not doing very well on this file.
The facts don’t support your claim. Not being able to think of something doesn’t mean it’s not there. Per the ‘Trudeaumeter’ tracking website, well over half of his platform promises have been achieved, slightly over a quarter broken, and the rest in various stages of progress. Though Trudeau is hardly a subject you can be accused of having an objective opinion of...


While his polling has lagged mildly (weird to see you suddenly put any stock in polling), I don’t see the ‘plummet’ you refer to. We’re the opposition to get together to force an election now, the LPC would likely come out of it no worse than they go in, and are very conceivably in striking distance of a majority.

My guess is come this fall once widespread vaccination is achieved and the economy is substantially reopened, we’ll see an election. This far the CPC simply haven’t shown what they need to show to pull it off. While they very likely have my vote, they need to pull a lot more of the centrist swing voters than they have so far. O’Toole is targeting the right voters, but hasn’t really found purchase yet.
 

Altair

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
129
Points
680
Most of Trudeau's promises have fallen by the wayside. He has a huge tendency of ignoring them once he's made them. I can't think of one he's kept except his absolute balls up of his gun theft bill. So we wait til Sept to see if he kicks this one also? Betting on him fulfilling his promise is a mugs game. Why would he start keeping promises now?
I've used his vaccination program forecasting app to see when I'm eligible for the shot, based on us having all the vaccine we needed. It also said September, behind 23 million others, before his ineptitude screwed that up by blowing it with the ChiCom deal. Now we have all the rest of the non deliverables and you still think we'll be caught up by September? Good on you, I love your optimism. BTW, last figure I saw it was 1.38%, not 1.8%, but it may have moved in the last 48 hrs.

Anyway, I think I made my point. He can't be trusted to do as he says and he's made us a laughing stock amongst our allies and peers with his ineptitude. He's the ultimate micro manager. Unfortunately for us, he hasn't a clue what he's doing, even while trying to do everything himself.

He's dropping in the polls like a lead weight because of his handling of the vaccination roll out. That's a lot of people that think he's not doing very well on this file.
While this belongs in the other politics thread, just a note.


In short, the experts found that by March of this year Trudeau’s government had entirely followed through on about 50 per cent of its pledges, partially delivered on about 40 per cent and had broken roughly 10 per cent.

From the national post, no friend of the LPC.
 
Top