If it is written, then it's true. Toronto Star says new attack helicopters.

[SeaKingTacco]

George,

If I am reading you right, you are saying an AH-1Z is to a twin Huey as a M-113 is to a Lynx?

As I understand the AH-1Z program, a better anology would that it compares to the twin huey like a LAV 3 compares to a Grizzly- they sort of have a common ancestory, but that's it.

 

[Taylor187]

No it is not (see little box with Red and Gold(Yellow) above...  ;D ), but the UH-1Y is the continuation of UH-1N or what we called the CH135.  Does it really matter.  The comparison to the commonality of parts between the two and the same idea with the M113 and Lynx is what I am pointing out. 

The suggestion of going to the UH-1Y from the Bell 412/CH-146 wasn't really based on engine types, take off weight, or range. I was thinking more along the lines (Which I should of elaborated) an upgrade of air frames, advanced electronic warfare self protection suite, FLIR package and an advanced Warning system with missile/laser/radar warnings and automatic counter measure systems. Combine that with the AH-1W (Eventually a Zulu upgrade package to bring compatibility inline with the UH-1Y) and it's a cost effective solution to any any frame woes which could ground the birds in the near future.

That's at least my view on the subject as an civie looking in from the outside.

 

[George Wallace]

George,

If I am reading you right, you are saying an AH-1Z is to a twin Huey as a M-113 is to a Lynx?

As I understand the AH-1Z program, a better anology would that it compares to the twin huey like a LAV 3 compares to a Grizzly- they sort of have a common ancestory, but that's it.

Basically, that is what I am saying.  The Lynx and M113 have the same engines, and transmissions, suspensions, etc.  The Lynx has a different Engine/Transmission setup as well as Differential separated by prop shafts/Pillow Box.  Although many things were the same, there were still many parts that were unique.

The LAV 3 and Grizzly are not the same vehicles, and other than headlights  ;D there were very few interchangeable parts.

The AH-1(X) and UH-1(X) suggestion has some merit, but also, it is not without its' flaws.  A few interchangeable parts mentioned in passing is a bit simplistic.

 

[GAP]

How many of these are we talking about?

 

[Kirkhill]

Some reading for those interested - Canadian Attack Helicopters is a personal favourite of mine - it references the ARH, the replacement for the Kiowa


This posting from the Attack Helicopters thread by Inch is interesting as well - CH-146 mocked up with a 50 Cal Gatling, a pair of Hellfires and what looks to be 25-30mm cannon.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/1159/post-117842.html#msg117842

Attack helicopters:

why isn't canada spend some of tht money to buy some apaches -- http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/46506.0.html
Canadian Attack Helicopters -- http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/46687.0.html
The Apache Longbow -- http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37789.0.html
Attack Helicopters -- http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/1159.0.html
What do you think about this?? (HIND) -- http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/47439.0.html

 

[Inch]

Yes it is: http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jawa/jawa001013_1_n.shtml (scroll down to "Accommodation")

I stand corrected. Still though, it's not add on, it was designed into the airframe, just like the Titanium tub in the A-10.

 

[observor 69]

If you take a Huey/Griffin and add guns, rockets etc how would it preform at the altitudes of Afghanistan?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

If you take a Huey/Griffin and add guns, rockets etc how would it preform at the altitudes of Afghanistan?

Depends on how much stuff you add, plus fuel load and Density Altitude.  Someone like Strike or GtoGolf would be better people to weigh in here, as our resident Griffon experts.

 

[Sf2]

depends on many factors...where in Afghanistan?  South?  North?  How hot are we talking?  How long do you want to fly for?  How much ammo do you want to carry?  Is there any wind?  What's the humidity?  What power margins are the pilots willing to accept, depending on their skill level?

What I'm trying to get at is that is isn't so black and white whether it will work or not.  There are numerous factors, all of which have effect on the other, that affect the performance of the GriffOn (o, not i).

 

[observor 69]

I thought this was interesting and relevant to the chopper discussion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/15/nafg115.xml

The British Army is operating with "woefully inadequate" resources in Afghanistan that are putting soldiers' lives in danger, The Daily Telegraph can disclose.
Despite Tony Blair's promise last year that the Army would be furnished with whatever equipment it needed there are still glaring and dangerous gaps in what is being delivered on the ground.

The Daily Telegraph spent three weeks on the front line with troops in Helmand province and discovered a number of alarming kit deficiencies that are making one of the world's most hostile environments even more perilous.

A total of 55 British soldiers have been killed in Helmand since troops were deployed there last year - many of them in their late teens or early 20s.

The Prime Minister pledged that frontline commanders would be given whatever they needed to fight Taliban insurgents yet the kit shortages revealed yesterday paint a very different picture of the reality for British troops in the province.
The Daily Telegraph can disclose that:

Just 50 per cent of Apache helicopter are working
Only 70 per cent of Chinooks are available
A garrison was down to its last 200 mortar rounds because no helicopter resupply
Only 16 of 96 new armoured vehicles have been delivered
Engineers are forced to travel in soft-skinned trucks while carrying high explosive
Soldiers have bought their own binoculars to replace inadequate Army sights.

More at link.

 

[observor 69]

depends on many factors...where in Afghanistan?  South?  North?  How hot are we talking?  How long do you want to fly for?  How much ammo do you want to carry?  Is there any wind?  What's the humidity?  What power margins are the pilots willing to accept, depending on their skill level?

What I'm trying to get at is that is isn't so black and white whether it will work or not.  There are numerous factors, all of which have effect on the other, that affect the performance of the GriffOn (o, not i).

Pushing my lane here but I can't but think a Griffon with two engines, some door guns, could one hope for rockets....would be of value in KAF.
Night vision flight supply run, cool air, avoiding IED's  ??

 

[observor 69]

Pushing my lane here but I can't but think a Griffon with two engines, some door guns, could one hope for rockets....would be of value in KAF.
Night vision flight supply run, cool air, avoiding IED's  ??

Added thought:
Reviewing other thread on Griffons and maybe it's like the Brits, lack of manpower and bucks.
Anyway will our Chinooks ever see KAF, maybe if we extend the mission and by then we could hope for Apaches !

 

[Loachman]

CH-146.......another military mistake brought to you by the Liberals!

Not that I'm a lieberal defender or apologist by any means, but you can't pin that on them. Marcel Masse was the PC defence minister at the time, and they were built in his home riding - a "get-me-re-elected" project that failed.

 

[Reccesoldier]

Not an Air Force Type!! ;D

What about the BO105?  It doesn't look mean (a definite requirement due to the tin-foil-hat Brigades disapproval of anything aggressive looking) in spite of it's payload capabilities.

 

[baboon6]

Not an Air Force Type!! ;D

What about the BO105?  It doesn't look mean (a definite requirement due to the tin-foil-hat Brigades disapproval of anything aggressive looking) in spite of it's payload capabilities.

No longer in production. Replaced by EC 135 and in specifically military applications by the the EC 635

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_EC_135

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_EC_635

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ec_635/

 

[cameron]

I find the Toronto Star article interesting for one main reason.  Arguments have been put forward why the Griffon can't be deployed into theatres like A'stan, so why modify it to be an armed escort for the Chinook when the powers that be can't or won't deploy the Griffon into certain theatres.  On another point I hope the Canadian government is seriously considering purchasing attack helicopters (in the not too distant future).  The two platforms that I think may best suit the CF's needs are the AH1Z Cobra and the version of the Lynx used by the Royal Marines.  Both have proven to be quite capable and reliable platforms at much less cost than say an Apache, cheers.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I wonder if the newly acquired Lakota might be an option for the CF?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UH-72_Lakota

 

[George Wallace]

No longer in production. Replaced by EC 135 and in specifically military applications by the the EC 635

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_EC_135

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_EC_635

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ec_635/

I wonder if the newly acquired Lakota might be an option for the CF?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UH-72_Lakota

Looks like you guys are looking in the same 'catalogue'.  ;D

cameron

One advantage of the AH-1W or Z is that you can transport more in one lift by Air or Sea, than you can AH-64's.

 

[GAP]

In looking at the Lakota, which is replacing the Blackhawk, we would be looking at more of a general puirpose helicopter that can be adapted.....not sure if that is the intent, but interesting .....

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I was thinking that being more multi purpose would be more useful.