Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Not sure if this belongs here or not - but another case of us shooting ourselves in the foot?

Canadian Army says new military sleeping bags not suitable for 'typical Canadian winter'​

'I wonder if they should have just gone to Canadian Tire,' says defence expert​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/army-sleeping-bags-arctic-1.7321680

 

[dimsum]

Not sure if this belongs here or not - but another case of us shooting ourselves in the foot?

Canadian Army says new military sleeping bags not suitable for 'typical Canadian winter'​

'I wonder if they should have just gone to Canadian Tire,' says defence expert​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/army-sleeping-bags-arctic-1.7321680

If anything is labelled “General Purpose”, I take it to mean “will never work in the extreme ends of the spectrum” like the tropics or the Arctic.

I’d like to see the specs of the bag, to be honest. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was only rated to -20 (or higher).

 

[KevinB]

Not sure if this belongs here or not - but another case of us shooting ourselves in the foot?

Canadian Army says new military sleeping bags not suitable for 'typical Canadian winter'​

'I wonder if they should have just gone to Canadian Tire,' says defence expert​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/army-sleeping-bags-arctic-1.7321680

Once again the made in Canada bites the CAF in the ass.
One of the rules I think that should be put in place in any Requirement for the CAF is ‘what does the US Military use, and let’s test that first to see if it makes sense for the CAF’

Down here there is a Combat Development rule that says ‘one cannot make a new requirement of another fielded system fills that role’ - the ideal is based on having common systems for all services when possible - now some services end up gaming the system, by adding additional KPP to the requirements so the in service system of another isn’t adopted. Sometimes that makes sense, but often it’s simply because one service has a desired system, and it’s just designed to ensure that system is adopted — as opposed to adopting the other services system that would work just as well (if not better). If the HASC and SASC were savvy enough their staffers would see through this and come down to ensure those frivolous programs were not funded.

Don’t get me wrong, some service systems are not viable for others, but the ‘work arounds’ should be a fair and open competition. Not just a BS JNA or back door shady buy using O&M funds to get a new system (looking at you there USASOC).

 

[KevinB]

If anything is labelled “General Purpose”, I take it to mean “will never work in the extreme ends of the spectrum” like the tropics or the Arctic.

I’d like to see the specs of the bag, to be honest. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was only rated to -20 (or higher).

Or how it was rated.

Quite often a lot of the sleeping bag ratings require use of a cot and 2” thermarest to be enough insulation for a -40 rating.

Which isn’t exactly practical for a Light Infantry soldier.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Once again the made in Canada bites the CAF in the ass.
One of the rules I think that should be put in place in any Requirement for the CAF is ‘what does the US Military use, and let’s test that first to see if it makes sense for the CAF’

Down here there is a Combat Development rule that says ‘one cannot make a new requirement of another fielded system fills that role’ - the ideal is based on having common systems for all services when possible - now some services end up gaming the system, by adding additional KPP to the requirements so the in service system of another isn’t adopted. Sometimes that makes sense, but often it’s simply because one service has a desired system, and it’s just designed to ensure that system is adopted — as opposed to adopting the other services system that would work just as well (if not better). If the HASC and SASC were savvy enough their staffers would see through this and come down to ensure those frivolous programs were not funded.

Don’t get me wrong, some service systems are not viable for others, but the ‘work arounds’ should be a fair and open competition. Not just a BS JNA or back door shady buy using O&M funds to get a new system (looking at you there USASOC).

Many many years ago my father-in-law worked in Natick at the NSSC (Natick Soldier Systems Center) (he ended his career there) and was involved in alot of testing/development for the US Army back in the day. The rigors of the testing, retesting and retesting again that he told me about was quite fascinating.

 

[lenaitch]

When I flew around northern Ontario we had to use a Woods Five Star. It's discontinued now but if I recall was rated to -50*F (degrees F back then). To 'sleep rough' you still needed a ground sheet or pad to keep cold and moisture from wicking up from below. It was over 20lb and I certainly would want to hump that around a lot. I see Woods newer product is their Yukon 10. Still 23lb and it looks like you still need a ground pad.

I'm not surprised a "general purpose" anything wouldn't be suitable for northern Canada in the winter.

 

[McG]

If anything is labelled “General Purpose”, I take it to mean “will never work in the extreme ends of the spectrum” like the tropics or the Arctic.

I’d like to see the specs of the bag, to be honest. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was only rated to -20 (or higher).

In the Canadian Army, “General Purpose” should probably imply it will work in Shilo and Wainwright.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Not sure if this belongs here or not - but another case of us shooting ourselves in the foot?

Canadian Army says new military sleeping bags not suitable for 'typical Canadian winter'​

'I wonder if they should have just gone to Canadian Tire,' says defence expert​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/army-sleeping-bags-arctic-1.7321680

From 23 Feb 2023 info machine:

new sleeping bag

And what a quick internet search finds this on the GPSB:

GPSBS Condensation Mitigation

The GPSBS’s moisture-wicking design addresses condensation issues in extreme cold and wet conditions by utilizing capillary action to rapidly move sweat and moisture away from the skin and through the fabric. This non-absorbent design ensures that moisture is not trapped within the fabric, reducing the likelihood of condensation buildup.

In cold and wet conditions, the moisture-wicking fabric:

• Prevents moisture accumulation: By quickly removing sweat and moisture from the skin, the fabric prevents the buildup of condensation, which can lead to chilling and discomfort.
• Enhances drying: The fabric’s rapid moisture transfer and quick-drying properties help to evaporate moisture more efficiently, reducing the risk of condensation and keeping the wearer dry and comfortable.
• Reduces fabric saturation: The non-absorbent nature of the moisture-wicking fabric minimizes the amount of moisture absorbed by the fabric, reducing the likelihood of condensation and maintaining warmth and insulation.

Overall, the GPSBS’s moisture-wicking design effectively mitigates condensation issues in extreme cold and wet conditions, ensuring a dry, comfortable, and warm wear experience.

 

[KevinB]

FWIW the issue bag setup down here is only rated to -30F (-34.4 C) when used as a combo.

PEO Soldier | Portfolio - PM SSV - Sleep Systems

Also one issue that really isn’t covered well, is that at certain temperatures, ‘breathable’ isn’t a thing, as moisture will simply freeze on the exterior and render it unable to pass any moisture beyond. In turn that exterior will build up with ice and reduce the viability of it and the layer below it as an insulation layer. In turn being a vicious cycle as the next layer will then get moisture filled, freeze and continue the cycle.

 

[captloadie]

One has to wonder at whether anyone looked at the requirements with a critical eye and did some research of what was within the realm of the possible (and affordable). Did DSSPM/DLR just accept certain requirements without fact checking to ensure they were possible? For hypothetical example, if total weight of the system was to be less than or equal to 15 lbs, with no piece exceeding 5 lbs, and the temperature range be -35-20, is that even possible? Did the contractor then role the dice and met the weight restrictions but fudged the temperature?

 

[KevinB]

One has to wonder at whether anyone looked at the requirements with a critical eye and did some research of what was within the realm of the possible (and affordable). Did DSSPM/DLR just accept certain requirements without fact checking to ensure they were possible? For hypothetical example, if total weight of the system was to be less than or equal to 15 lbs, with no piece exceeding 5 lbs, and the temperature range be -35-20, is that even possible? Did the contractor then role the dice and met the weight restrictions but fudged the temperature?

Or did they just misunderstand what a solider needs?

The Temperature ‘ability’ of the sleeping bag may be fine for certain activities. But not for a soldier who may be sweating prior to entry, or any number of other variables.

This is the reason that Operational Testing needs to be conducted in down selects with ideally a valid sample size of the various down selects.

Feedback from OT can be used to either issue the award to a vendor, or be used to go back to the OEM’s of the items for further refining.

 

[daftandbarmy]

One has to wonder at whether anyone looked at the requirements with a critical eye and did some research of what was within the realm of the possible (and affordable). Did DSSPM/DLR just accept certain requirements without fact checking to ensure they were possible? For hypothetical example, if total weight of the system was to be less than or equal to 15 lbs, with no piece exceeding 5 lbs, and the temperature range be -35-20, is that even possible? Did the contractor then role the dice and met the weight restrictions but fudged the temperature?

FWIW, can confirm that this bag is good to -30C.... Weight: 3lbs, 12oz

Puma GWS Expedition​

To some people winter mountaineering is just a pastime. Be it searching for an uncut bowl to tele, a frozen waterfall to climb or a simple visit to the Brooks Range, the Puma Gore Infinium™ has been there, done that! This sizable bag is lofted with down and roomy to boot! 37 ounces of 850+ fill power down lofts this bag to a full 9″ for a rating of minus 25 below! A shoulder girth of 64″ provides room to layer, store clothing or fit to big folk. The inside foot section is sewn with a 2.4 oz. fabric to protect the bag while stowing gear. And the Reverse Differential Hood is roomy, down filled and warm, and totally made with Gore Infinium™. The full down filled collar and both Interlocking Draft Tubes are also completely made with Gore Infinium™ fabric. No place to cut costs! Few continents require anything warmer than our Puma Gore Infinium™!

Puma GWS Expedition – Western Mountaineering

www.westernmountaineering.com

 

[captloadie]

Sweet bag, and looks like it could be a contender for winter ops. But what do you do when its only +10, or -5? Do we need to procure 3 separate sleeping bags to meet the full spectrum of where we operate?

 

[KevinB]

Sweet bag, and looks like it could be a contender for winter ops. But what do you do when its only +10, or -5? Do we need to procure 3 separate sleeping bags to meet the full spectrum of where we operate?

The other issue with single bag setups is they are individually very expensive and if damaged there is goes.

I have an Arctic bag that works really well - it’s actually the heavier duty brother of the one that @daftandbarmy posted. But while good for expedition type stuff it absolutely sucks for .mil stuff where an inner bag needs regular cleaning and while I use a silk liner for both applications, there are times when the inner bag gets pretty nasty — so while a single bag is good in some ways (often lighter than multi bag setups for equal or better temperature ratings) if the single bag gets wet it’s pretty awful - where with the multi setups, you can strip part of it that got wet to dry while using the other (that hopefully isn’t wet).

 

[daftandbarmy]

Sweet bag, and looks like it could be a contender for winter ops. But what do you do when its only +10, or -5? Do we need to procure 3 separate sleeping bags to meet the full spectrum of where we operate?

Well, we could issue a ‘Speing to Fall’ bag to everyone for regular use. Make it synthetic if you want to.

For winter, like with snowshoes and tent groups, we could then issue the -30c bags, then have them turned in for cleaning and storing before reissue next winter.

This is essentially the way the British managed the process for their AMF(L) units tasked to winter deployments in Norway. Everyone had a temperate bag on their regular kit issue, and you signed out an Arctic bag for the (3 month) deployment.

 

[OldSolduer]

Not sure if this belongs here or not - but another case of us shooting ourselves in the foot?

Canadian Army says new military sleeping bags not suitable for 'typical Canadian winter'​

'I wonder if they should have just gone to Canadian Tire,' says defence expert​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/army-sleeping-bags-arctic-1.7321680

Facepalm is all I got in response

 

[Quirky]

Not sure if this belongs here or not - but another case of us shooting ourselves in the foot?

Another reason to remuster to RCAF.

 

[OldSolduer]

Sweet bag, and looks like it could be a contender for winter ops. But what do you do when its only +10, or -5? Do we need to procure 3 separate sleeping bags to meet the full spectrum of where we operate?

Its been near a decade since I slept in an Arctic tent BUT the old ones we were issued were very good. And you could tailor the bag to the time of year.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I did a few Wintex's in Valcartier mid-winter in the old olive green uniforms. It was light recce force vs light recce force stuff. We hit -35C (which is where the scales match one another, for our American friends) and lower at night. We slept in survival caches we built for ourselves in the deep snow (usually under a canopy of evergreen). All the gear -mukluks, Extreme Cold Arctic Combat pants and jacket, mitts, tuques and double layered sleeping bag - was made in Canada and not only did we not get cold, but we were nice and toasty in the bags and, after only half a kilometer walking or snowshoeing, we had to strip the jacket open because we were too warm.

How can we, in Canada, forget how to produce gear like that?

 

[daftandbarmy]

I did a few Wintex's in Valcartier mid-winter in the old olive green uniforms. It was light recce force vs light recce force stuff. We hit -35C (which is where the scales match one another, for our American friends) and lower at night. We slept in survival caches we built for ourselves in the deep snow (usually under a canopy of evergreen). All the gear -mukluks, Extreme Cold Arctic Combat pants and jacket, mitts, tuques and double layered sleeping bag - was made in Canada and not only did we not get cold, but we were nice and toasty in the bags and, after only half a kilometer walking or snowshoeing, we had to strip the jacket open because we were too warm.

How can we, in Canada, forget how to produce gear like that?