LAV 6.0

[KevinB]

So. Do you need Javelin on each LAV in a platoon or could you keep Javelin as a dismount weapon and add a Brimstone platoon to each company and a company to each battalion? Or a battery to each brigade? Or all of the above?

Javelin for each LAV, plus dismount.
Brimstone Platoon at the BN maybe. I'd be more interested in it for Canada if Canada had AH's - as its just really a Hellfire
Frankly I think the JAGM is a better setup for Canada in that sort of role.

At Bde level you aren't getting the range that others offer, and Spike NLOS ER to me is the better option there.

 

[Kirkhill]

Javelin for each LAV, plus dismount.
Brimstone Platoon at the BN maybe. I'd be more interested in it for Canada if Canada had AH's - as its just really a Hellfire
Frankly I think the JAGM is a better setup for Canada in that sort of role.

At Bde level you aren't getting the range that others offer, and Spike NLOS ER to me is the better option there.

There you go with your LockMart shares again!

 

[FJAG]

I still can't help thinking that some cutting and welding torch work on the TAPVs could give you a suitable platform for ATGM, AD and mortar support vehicles. If you got lemons - make lemonade.

 

[Kirkhill]

I still can't help thinking that some cutting and welding torch work on the TAPVs could give you a suitable platform for ATGM, AD and mortar support vehicles. If you got lemons - make lemonade.

Unless the hull is a monocoque construction and lacks a frame?

I stand to be corrected but I don't think the hull has conventional frame.

 

[FJAG]

Unless the hull is a monocoque construction and lacks a frame?

I stand to be corrected but I don't think the hull has conventional frame.

Nothing an engineer can't figure out.

 

[Kirkhill]

UK Army's Anti-Armour Plan.

Battle Group Organic Anti-Armour
BGOAA	CISD	Close In Self Defence	NLAW Replacement
BGOAA	CCAAW	Close Combat Anti-Armour Weapons Mounted and Dismounted	Javelin Replacement
BGOAA	MCCO	Mounted Close Combat Overwatch	Brimstone

Mounted Close Combat Overwatch (MCCO): a long-range system providing anti-armour coverage to the battle group, with concepts carrying multiple missiles weighing up to 50kg with a range of up to 10km or more
Missile	Role	Diameter	Length	Mass	Range
		mm	mm	kg	km
Hellfire	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	180	1600	45	8
Hellfire II	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	180	1630	45	8
Brimstone	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	178	1800	50	8
JAGM	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	180	1800	49	8
SPEAR Capability 2; a 50kg class powered missile, eventually Block 3, Brimstone 2
MCCO	To replace Javelin and NLOS Spike/Exactor			<50	>10
Missile		Diameter	Length	Mass	Range
		mm	mm	kg	km
Longbow	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	180	1800	49	11
Brimstone 2	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	178	1800	50	12
Sea Spear	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	178	1800	50	12
Brimstone 3	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	178	1800	50	15
JAGM-MR	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	180	1800	49	16

The first thing I note is that the Battle Group's Area of Operations is now >10 km and the Brimstone/JAGM capability puts it into the 10-20 km range. Less of a problem than it might be if the BG has its own recce squadron of UAVs.

The second thing I note is that while JAGM and Brimstone might have been co-equals at 8 km the Brimstone has advanced into the 12-15 km range (publicly) and JAGM is just now starting to catch up at the 16 km mark.

Beyond the Battle Group the Recce Strike Brigade seems to be adding its own Brimstone-esque missile. The Spear seems to take the Brimstone seeker, warhead and flight controls and swaps out the rocket for a turbo-jet and adds wings to produce something that can service Brimstone targets but at 140 km ranges.

SPEAR Capability 3; a longer-range 100kg class weapon with the ability to be re-targeted in flight using two-way datalinks, eventually SPEAR
LPS				<100	>80
Missile		Diameter	Length	Mass	Range
		mm	mm	kg	km
SPEAR	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	180	<2000	<100	140

The SPEAR missile is compatible with either the SkySabre launcher or the M270/HIMARS families of launchers as well as naval VLS systems.

Launcher Compatible Missiles (M270 MLRS and/or SkySabre)
			Diameter	Length	Mass	Range
			mm	mm	kg	km
SkySabre	CAMM	Anti-Air	166	3200	99	>25
SkySabre	CAMM-ER	Anti-Air	190	4200	166	>45
SkySabre	CAMM-MR	Anti-Air	TBD	TBD	TBD	>100
M270	GMLRS	Anti-Structure	227	3930	303	70
M271	GMLRS-ER	Anti-Structure	227	3930	303	150
M272	GLSDB	Anti-Structure	240	3910	270	150
M273	PrSM	Anti-Structure	430	4000	NA	>499

SPEAR programmes.

SPEAR Capability 1; Raytheon Paveway IV precision-guided bomb and subsequent improvements to include reduced collateral and penetrator warhead and enhanced capability against moving targets.

SPEAR Capability 2; a 50kg class powered missile, eventually Block 3, Brimstone 2

SPEAR Capability 3; a longer-range 100kg class weapon with the ability to be re-targeted in flight using two-way datalinks, eventually SPEAR

SPEAR Capability 4; upgrades to Storm Shadow to sustain it to the OSD

SPEAR Capability 5; longer range replacement for Storm Shadow

 

[Kirkhill]

Nothing an engineer can't figure out.

Such confidence.

 

[FJAG]

Such confidence.

Delegate and disappear.

 

[KevinB]

UK Army's Anti-Armour Plan.

Battle Group Organic Anti-Armour
BGOAA	CISD	Close In Self Defence	NLAW Replacement
BGOAA	CCAAW	Close Combat Anti-Armour Weapons Mounted and Dismounted	Javelin Replacement
BGOAA	MCCO	Mounted Close Combat Overwatch	Brimstone

Mounted Close Combat Overwatch (MCCO): a long-range system providing anti-armour coverage to the battle group, with concepts carrying multiple missiles weighing up to 50kg with a range of up to 10km or more
Missile	Role	Diameter	Length	Mass	Range
		mm	mm	kg	km
Hellfire	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	180	1600	45	8
Hellfire II	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	180	1630	45	8
Brimstone	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	178	1800	50	8
JAGM	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	180	1800	49	8
SPEAR Capability 2; a 50kg class powered missile, eventually Block 3, Brimstone 2
MCCO	To replace Javelin and NLOS Spike/Exactor			<50	>10
Missile		Diameter	Length	Mass	Range
		mm	mm	kg	km
Longbow	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	180	1800	49	11
Brimstone 2	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	178	1800	50	12
Sea Spear	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	178	1800	50	12
Brimstone 3	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	178	1800	50	15
JAGM-MR	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	180	1800	49	16

The first thing I note is that the Battle Group's Area of Operations is now >10 km and the Brimstone/JAGM capability puts it into the 10-20 km range. Less of a problem than it might be if the BG has its own recce squadron of UAVs.

The second thing I note is that while JAGM and Brimstone might have been co-equals at 8 km the Brimstone has advanced into the 12-15 km range (publicly) and JAGM is just now starting to catch up at the 16 km mark.

Beyond the Battle Group the Recce Strike Brigade seems to be adding its own Brimstone-esque missile. The Spear seems to take the Brimstone seeker, warhead and flight controls and swaps out the rocket for a turbo-jet and adds wings to produce something that can service Brimstone targets but at 140 km ranges.

SPEAR Capability 3; a longer-range 100kg class weapon with the ability to be re-targeted in flight using two-way datalinks, eventually SPEAR
LPS				<100	>80
Missile		Diameter	Length	Mass	Range
		mm	mm	kg	km
SPEAR	Anti-Tank/Anti-Structure	180	<2000	<100	140

The SPEAR missile is compatible with either the SkySabre launcher or the M270/HIMARS families of launchers as well as naval VLS systems.

Launcher Compatible Missiles (M270 MLRS and/or SkySabre)
			Diameter	Length	Mass	Range
			mm	mm	kg	km
SkySabre	CAMM	Anti-Air	166	3200	99	>25
SkySabre	CAMM-ER	Anti-Air	190	4200	166	>45
SkySabre	CAMM-MR	Anti-Air	TBD	TBD	TBD	>100
M270	GMLRS	Anti-Structure	227	3930	303	70
M271	GMLRS-ER	Anti-Structure	227	3930	303	150
M272	GLSDB	Anti-Structure	240	3910	270	150
M273	PrSM	Anti-Structure	430	4000	NA	>499

SPEAR programmes.

SPEAR Capability 1; Raytheon Paveway IV precision-guided bomb and subsequent improvements to include reduced collateral and penetrator warhead and enhanced capability against moving targets.

SPEAR Capability 2; a 50kg class powered missile, eventually Block 3, Brimstone 2

SPEAR Capability 3; a longer-range 100kg class weapon with the ability to be re-targeted in flight using two-way datalinks, eventually SPEAR

SPEAR Capability 4; upgrades to Storm Shadow to sustain it to the OSD

SPEAR Capability 5; longer range replacement for Storm Shadow

Keep in mind you realy can’t take OS ranges at face value.

Everyone likes to keep their cards close to the chest in that sphere.
Closed briefings have entirely different types of marketing materials

 

[Kirkhill]

Keep in mind you realy can’t take OS ranges at face value.

Everyone likes to keep their cards close to the chest in that sphere.
Closed briefings have entirely different types of marketing materials

You mean like some people might claim longer ranges than the actual ones if the competition is claiming longer ranges?

I could never trust a man that put macaroni in his hat.

 

[KevinB]

You mean like some people might claim longer ranges than the actual ones if the competition is claiming longer ranges?

I could never trust a man that put macaroni in his hat.

No but generally any US munitions are understated by at least 33%

While many other countries like to overemphasize theirs.

 

[markppcli]

I still can't help thinking that some cutting and welding torch work on the TAPVs could give you a suitable platform for ATGM, AD and mortar support vehicles. If you got lemons - make lemonade.

If that some how solved the mechanical reliability, and off road capabilities I’d see your point.

 

[childs56]

I still can't help thinking that some cutting and welding torch work on the TAPVs could give you a suitable platform for ATGM, AD and mortar support vehicles. If you got lemons - make lemonade.

I think your on to something practical for our TAPVs so they have a real purpose. I like the idea of a mortar carrier and a Target Acquisition version.

Commando® Family of Products

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[markppcli]

I don’t know how you’d make an effective mortar carrier out of it given its internal dimensions. You could tow them but that’s like half a battle. I assume by target acquisition you mean a forward observation vehicle ?


Then again I could be wrong about the mortar carrier

 

[GR66]

I don’t know how you’d make an effective mortar carrier out of it given its internal dimensions. You could tow them but that’s like half a battle. I assume by target acquisition you mean a forward observation vehicle ?


Then again I could be wrong about the mortar carrier

Still seems a little like putting lipstick on a pig when there are so many better options for mortar carriers out there.

It's not like we don't have a use for a vehicle like this though. There are the MP's and BASF (if that's what it's still called). Can also be useful for flood or other natural disaster response when roads might be out, aid to civil powers, etc.

Better to use it for the roles it's suited for and get proper vehicles for the other roles than to try and shoehorn it into roles for which it isn't really suited (which is what we usually do).

 

[childs56]

Still seems a little like putting lipstick on a pig when there are so many better options for mortar carriers out there.

It's not like we don't have a use for a vehicle like this though. There are the MP's and BASF (if that's what it's still called). Can also be useful for flood or other natural disaster response when roads might be out, aid to civil powers, etc.

Better to use it for the roles it's suited for and get proper vehicles for the other roles than to try and shoehorn it into roles for which it isn't really suited (which is what we usually do).

They actually were built with more options then what we bought

 

[Halifax Tar]

Still seems a little like putting lipstick on a pig when there are so many better options for mortar carriers out there.

It's not like we don't have a use for a vehicle like this though. There are the MP's and BASF (if that's what it's still called). Can also be useful for flood or other natural disaster response when roads might be out, aid to civil powers, etc.

Better to use it for the roles it's suited for and get proper vehicles for the other roles than to try and shoehorn it into roles for which it isn't really suited (which is what we usually do).

CLP Force Pro ?

 

[KevinB]

They actually were built with more options then what we bought

However the internal setup of the CAF variant is not idea. You can’t fix that without totally gutting it, and rebuilding.

It’s a convoy escort / base defense vehicle, it just needs to be used for that.

 

[childs56]

However the internal setup of the CAF variant is not idea. You can’t fix that without totally gutting it, and rebuilding.

It’s a convoy escort / base defense vehicle, it just needs to be used for that.

Sure, it actually was designed as one vehicle platform with a few different variants to fill a roll of escort, base defense, cbrn, surveillance etc.
The TAPV would not take much to turn it into a Mortar carrier (kind of handy to have a Mortar truck on a convoy patrol...... As the manufacture already had this in mind. Remove the RWS cut hole in roof, or remove panel add twin hatch doors, install ammo racks, put mortar base and tube in vehicle add big heater.

I am not saying it would be the best, but it would fill a role that we currently do not have, could be useful especially on those pesky peacekeeping missions we tend to get roped into. They are pretty decently armored for what they are.
You could have them employed in more roles then they are now.

Or we could convert them all over to the 20mm turret system with SAMs use them for close in AD.

 

[KevinB]

Sure, it actually was designed as one vehicle platform with a few different variants to fill a roll of escort, base defense, cbrn, surveillance etc.
The TAPV would not take much to turn it into a Mortar carrier (kind of handy to have a Mortar truck on a convoy patrol...... As the manufacture already had this in mind. Remove the RWS cut hole in roof, or remove panel add twin hatch doors, install ammo racks, put mortar base and tube in vehicle add big heater.

I am not saying it would be the best, but it would fill a role that we currently do not have, could be useful especially on those pesky peacekeeping missions we tend to get roped into. They are pretty decently armored for what they are.
You could have them employed in more roles then they are now.

Or we could convert them all over to the 20mm turret system with SAMs use them for close in AD.

I don’t think you actually understand how they are are constructed.

The CAF got a terrible version to actually do anything with.

You can’t just convert it (easily) to a different model.
The ensure vehicle needs to be cut open and rebuilt.