Mandatory Time Off

[Foofighter]

I have been hearing from some people recently that a reservist (I don't know if this effects a reg) can not be denied time off from work for military training.  So for example if you had a week long exercise or if you had a three week long course you could get the time off of work without cutting into your holiday time and without worrying about if you job will still be there when you get back. 

Obviously this does not count for educational institutions, but I am talking about work here. 

So my question to you guys and girls is,
Can a reservist demand time off for upcoming training?

 

[Roy Harding]

...
Can a reservist demand time off for upcoming training?

Short answer:  No.

 

[Pencil Tech]

If you are a federal government employee, yes.

 

[dapaterson]

PencilTech:

You may request leave if you are a federal employee.  But there is no obligation to provide it.  According to the Reserve Force Leave Regulations, "Any person employed in the public service of Canada may be granted leave of absence".

The key word is "may".  It is not the imperative "shall".

Edit to add link to the Regulations:

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/ShowFullDoc/cr/C.R.C.-c.1050///en?noCookie

 

[Highland Laddie]

I have been hearing from some people recently that a reservist (I don't know if this effects a reg) can not be denied time off from work for military training.  So for example if you had a week long exercise or if you had a three week long course you could get the time off of work without cutting into your holiday time and without worrying about if you job will still be there when you get back. 

Obviously this does not count for educational institutions, but I am talking about work here. 

So my question to you guys and girls is,
Can a reservist demand time off for upcoming training?

I wouldn't "demand" time off - pissing off your employer is never a good move from a long term perspective. Try working with your employer - there may be other means of achieving this (unpaid time off, etc). My employer, a municipal gov't, gives me two weeks furlough leave per year for reserve training - two weeks unpaid, but they continue to pay my benefits, pension, etc.

Try CFLC and its services as well - a trip for my boss to a major ex with CFLC made a major change in their support to my reserve duties.

Also, what province are you from? Some provinces have employee protection legislation for Reservists (Sask, MB, and NS at last count IIRC). Here in Manitoba it allows for time off for "Active duty and / or training as defined in the NDA". While "active duty" is a US term and not defined in the NDA, many of us are looking at the "/ or training" aspect of the legislation as a means of working with employers to allow for Reservists to have time for career / trade courses (ie PLQ Mod 6, etc). The legislation is new (just this past summer), so we will see how it goes.

 

[Pencil Tech]

Dapaterson, point taken. However I work as a civilian for DND and it is different there, as in CPAO 6.28 MILITARY LEAVE, here's a link http://hr.dwan.dnd.ca/hrciv/cos/dcshrp/en/home_e.asp?reference=11044247

That's what I was thinking of, I guess.

 

[Foofighter]

Also, what province are you from? Some provinces have employee protection legislation for Reservists (Sask, MB, and NS at last count IIRC). Here in Manitoba it allows for time off for "Active duty and / or training as defined in the NDA". While "active duty" is a US term and not defined in the NDA, many of us are looking at the "/ or training" aspect of the legislation as a means of working with employers to allow for Reservists to have time for career / trade courses (ie PLQ Mod 6, etc). The legislation is new (just this past summer), so we will see how it goes.

I am from Saskatchewan, and this new legislation is what I have been hearing about I think.  I was hoping to get on a reg force SQ/BIQ kind of deal in the spring and I was always under the assumption that with something that long I would have to quit.  But with this new legislation I might be able to just get time off without pay instead. 

Also do you think that a weekend EX's counts as "Training"?

 

[Highland Laddie]

.....Also do you think that a weekend EX's counts as "Training"?

Frankly, I think that is pushing it. I don't think it is worth burning bridges with your employer for a weekend ex. See what other options you have. There are other aspects in play here - who do you work for, how many employees, nature of the work, can anyone else do your job, is it shift work, etc. You need to strike a balance between your civilian employment & Reserve employment. Trust me, the chain of command gets this.

Moreover, that's not the intent of the legislation (at least in MB) - this is exactly the type of activity that would put a very bad taste in employers' mouths. The intent is for deployment, or training leading up to deployment (trade training could be argued in this manner- but subject to debate). Too many people pushing the legislation too far will end up with the legislation being scrapped, thus defeating its intent - allowing pers to deploy, and still have their job when they get back.

Best option for now - work with your employer, strike a balance in terms of your responsibilities, and get a copy of the legislation and read it. Too many pers going around thinking they know what the legislation means is dangerous. Its only been three months here in MB, and already I am hearing things that are not correct.

 

[PO2FinClk]

To add reference material: CFAO 203-6

2.     Granting of leave for military purposes is governed by a collective agreement entered into by the bargaining agent and the Treasury Board, or by Treasury Board Regulations, depending on the person's occupational group and type of employment.
3.     Civilian Personnel Administrative Order (CPAO) 6.28 provides that requests by DND employees for leave for military purposes shall be approved where authority exists to do so, other governmental departments are not obliged to grant this leave as the authorities are permissive rather than mandatory.

 

[Fawkes]

Another issue is that Canadian reservists frequently volunteer to serve our country in extended overseas missions. Unfortunately our country--with the exception of the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia--does not recognize their sacrifice and some reservists return home only to face the unemployment line.

This situation is simply not fair to the men and women who put their lives on the line for their fellow Canadians.

Therefore we believe it's long overdue for the Canadian government to enact federal legislation that will protect the jobs of reservists who volunteer to serve in extended overseas missions.

http://www.petitiononline.com/jobprot/petition.html

 

[Highland Laddie]

Another issue is that Canadian reservists frequently volunteer to serve our country in extended overseas missions. Unfortunately our country--with the exception of the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia--does not recognize their sacrifice and some reservists return home only to face the unemployment line.

This situation is simply not fair to the men and women who put their lives on the line for their fellow Canadians.

Therefore we believe it's long overdue for the Canadian government to enact federal legislation that will protect the jobs of reservists who volunteer to serve in extended overseas missions.

http://www.petitiononline.com/jobprot/petition.html

Certainly a worthy question to ask. Luckily the Federal Gov't seems to be listening. I'm leaving in about 1/2 hour to go to a meeting here in Winnipeg between Reservists and the Federal Minister for Labour on this issue. We'll see how it goes....

 

[geo]

Fawkes,
While your idea of starting a petition is noble in spirit, it is flawed in reality.
If the law is created forcing employers to release an employee from his normal work so the fella can go overseas, then the employer is just as likely to inquire about your interests BEFORE hiring you, he'll probably pick up on the fact you are cleancut, find out you are a reservist.... and you'll never get a call for a second interview.

No measure, no matter how noble will result in forcing an employer to do what he does not want to do - ever.

The only thing you can do as a reservist is show him the advantages of giving you some time off for courses and training - leadership skills that will benefit the company, etc...
The only thing you can do to encourage an employer to give you the time off for an overseas deployment is to make it a financial benefit for him to do so.  Make your family's continued health benefit 100% deductible.  Make the salary of your replacement & his training time, 100% (or more) deductible.... these other financial incentives are what will grab your employer's attention - much, much more than passing a law forcing him to do anything.

Sorry my friend, no petition for me.

 

[Fawkes]

Fawkes,
While your idea of starting a petition is noble in spirit, it is flawed in reality.
If the law is created forcing employers to release an employee from his normal work so the fella can go overseas, then the employer is just as likely to inquire about your interests BEFORE hiring you, he'll probably pick up on the fact you are cleancut, find out you are a reservist.... and you'll never get a call for a second interview.

No measure, no matter how noble will result in forcing an employer to do what he does not want to do - ever.

The only thing you can do as a reservist is show him the advantages of giving you some time off for courses and training - leadership skills that will benefit the company, etc...
The only thing you can do to encourage an employer to give you the time off for an overseas deployment is to make it a financial benefit for him to do so.  Make your family's continued health benefit 100% deductible.  Make the salary of your replacement & his training time, 100% (or more) deductible.... these other financial incentives are what will grab your employer's attention - much, much more than passing a law forcing him to do anything.

Sorry my friend, no petition for me.

Actually, it's not my petition .... it's one that is on going. However, with today's employment standards, employers are quite accustomed to employees being off work for various lengths of time. For example, maternity/parental leave. So what's the say that an employer shouldn't hire people based on the possibility they may have a child. Employers have various options available to them so that their employee can take a leave of absents. For example, they contract out the position of a year or whatever the time they require in order to accommodate the employee. It's not unheard of and the US has been doing it for years to allow reservist time off in order to be deployed. Plus, three other Provinces have adapted to this type of leave.

 

[geo]

Fawkes,  If you check it out in the US, you will find that there are big problems with this very subject down there.
Some reservists and guardsmen are returning back from operations to find no job waiting for them OR what also happens is that, their unit is once again activated and they are ... back to the front - thrilling the employer to no end.

Closer to home, you will find that in may places employers prefer not having women in "key" roles OR not having yourger women in key roles for the very reason that they are of child rearing age... also, I can tell you that the are (not) at all happy with the parental leave thing.... up to 1 yr of leave of absence!  and for a reservist to prepare for a Roto, you're now talking about more than a year.....
TF 1/09 is already shaking out..... so we're talking about close to a two year leave of absence..... like having two pregnancies back to back.... do you think the owner is going to be waiting with open arms for the reservist to come back.... more like "port arms" than anything else... IMHO

 

[Spartan]

Certainly a worthy question to ask. Luckily the Federal Gov't seems to be listening. I'm leaving in about 1/2 hour to go to a meeting here in Winnipeg between Reservists and the Federal Minister for Labour on this issue. We'll see how it goes....

The jist of the meeting was a formal press conference telling us (the military audience) that this is going on. Basically the Minister of Labour has been put in charge of sussing out the details of job protection, between all interested groups ( Labour ministers -- provinical where such legislation already exists, businesses, and the DND), for a reservist. In addition, he has also been put in charge of getting Reservists reintegration resources/procedures sorted out.

Basically three questions were asked, with a similiar reply to each that it needs to be looked at in detail to get this legislation right.
The three questions consisted of:
Is this going to be looked at for the considerations of trade/leadership courses?
Is there any discussion of a tax incentive for businesses?
And will this lead to forced deployments.

 

[Fawkes]

Fawkes,  If you check it out in the US, you will find that there are big problems with this very subject down there.
Some reservists and guardsmen are returning back from operations to find no job waiting for them OR what also happens is that, their unit is once again activated and they are ... back to the front - thrilling the employer to no end.

Closer to home, you will find that in may places employers prefer not having women in "key" roles OR not having yourger women in key roles for the very reason that they are of child rearing age... also, I can tell you that the are (not) at all happy with the parental leave thing.... up to 1 yr of leave of absence!  and for a reservist to prepare for a Roto, you're now talking about more than a year.....
TF 1/09 is already shaking out..... so we're talking about close to a two year leave of absence..... like having two pregnancies back to back.... do you think the owner is going to be waiting with open arms for the reservist to come back.... more like "port arms" than anything else... IMHO

Actually, it's not only women who are off work, yet the father as well has the right to a leave of absent here in Ontario. You are correct the the length of time can and at time's, does extend to over a year. However, there is information that the Gov't is trying to extent parental leave from the work force from one year to two years.

The bottom line is if three of our Provinces recognize that the primary reserve members of our national defence MAY be needed to go on tour and that their jobs need to be protected, then it should be recognized across the board. The US has been doing it for years and I know that because I have worked with these people. However, that is in the USA. Here in Canada it should be all or nothing. Yes, employer's are going to have to make alternate arrangements to cover their positions in the mean time, but that's just business and it isn't out of the norm for employees to off on leave. The unfortunate part for the employer is that they will have to contract out that position much like on parental leave.

However, my concern is not what incentives an employer will receive or not receive, that is up to the Gov't. My concern is if a PR is required to do their military duties, they should be able to go and do so without the fear of loosing their job. Much like when people have to attend for jury duty. There is enough stress in their military occupantion that they shouldn't have to worry about how they are going to get by once they return. That's it in a nut shell ... I believe that the interest of the PR should be protected.

I would believe it is fair to say we agree to disagree in this matter. However, I have enjoyed this friendly debate. It give others a chance to see other's opinions in various fourms. That is a part of what makes our nation what it is .... Freedom.

 

[old medic]

FYI

Related threads from the Politics board:

Bill 226 (Ont.)
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/65263.0.html

Job protection legislation & Union support for deployments/training
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/52848.0.html

Job Protection for Canadian Reservists
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/65642.0.html

 

[armyvern]

Actually, it's not only women who are off work, yet the father as well has the right to a leave of absent here in Ontario. You are correct the the length of time can and at time's, does extend to over a year. However, there is information that the Gov't is trying to extent parental leave from the work force from one year to two years. ...

Actually, maternity leave/parental leave are of national jusrisdiction; men can, and do, take parental LOA accross the nation.

The bottom line is if three of our Provinces recognize that the primary reserve members of our national defence MAY be needed to go on tour and that their jobs need to be protected, then it should be recognized across the board. The US has been doing it for years and I know that because I have worked with these people. However, that is in the USA. Here in Canada it should be all or nothing. Yes, employer's are going to have to make alternate arrangements to cover their positions in the mean time, but that's just business and it isn't out of the norm for employees to off on leave. The unfortunate part for the employer is that they will have to contract out that position much like on parental leave.

However, my concern is not what incentives an employer will receive or not receive, that is up to the Gov't. My concern is if a PR is required to do their military duties, they should be able to go and do so without the fear of loosing their job. Much like when people have to attend for jury duty. There is enough stress in their military occupantion that they shouldn't have to worry about how they are going to get by once they return. That's it in a nut shell ... I believe that the interest of the PR should be protected.

I would believe it is fair to say we agree to disagree in this matter. However, I have enjoyed this friendly debate. It give others a chance to see other's opinions in various fourms. That is a part of what makes our nation what it is .... Freedom.

Let me state this clearly: I believe that there SHOULD be job protection for Canadian Reservists. It should be federally mandated.

But, as of right now, we have a volunteer Canadian Forces. The simple fact of the matter is that there are NO ResF members REQUIRED to go on work-up training, tour or to deploy. Those that do, have volunteered to do so; certainly, they are not required to do so. They have voluntarily left the employ of their normal job for up to 2 years. That is no small point, and, I fear, it is one of the big reasons that so many business' do not extend voluntary LOA to their reservists within their employ.

It'd be like anyone else walking into the office and saying ... "hey boss, I want to take a couple years off to cycle around the globe, I want my job here for me when I get back; thanks." It affects their ability to run their business, and their bottom line. The nature of why you are leaving them for up to 2 years may differ, but the fact that you have made a personal choice to do so is not.

As long as job protection for Reservists is voluntary ... you simply aren't going to find many employers taking up the offer. It needs to be mandated.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Actually, maternity leave/parental leave are of national jusrisdiction; men can, and do, take parental LOA accross the nation.

Let me state this clearly: I believe that there SHOULD be job protection for Canadian Reservists. It should be federally mandated.

But, as of right now, we have a volunteer Canadian Forces. The simple fact of the matter is that there are NO ResF members REQUIRED to go on work-up training, tour or to deploy. Those that do, have volunteered to do so; certainly, they are not required to do so. They have voluntarily left the employ of their normal job for up to 2 years. That is no small point, and, I fear, it is one of the big reasons that so many business' do not extend voluntary LOA to their reservists within their employ.

It'd be like anyone else walking into the office and saying ... "hey boss, I want to take a couple years off to cycle around the globe, I want my job here for me when I get back; thanks." It affects their ability to run their business, and their bottom line. The nature of why you are leaving them for up to 2 years may differ, but the fact that you have made a personal choice to do so is not.

As long as job protection for Reservists is voluntary ... you simply aren't going to find many employers taking up the offer. It needs to be mandated.

I agree that "there SHOULD be job protection for Canadian Reservists" and "It should be federally mandated." But I also agree that mandated job protection "affects their (Canadian businesses, especially SMEs) ability to run their business, and their bottom line."

It seems to me that any national initiative to provide job protection must be accompanied by a comprehensive federal tax credit programme for employers who protect reservists' jobs. There are direct and indirect costs (e.g. replacement worker's training and lower productivity) which can be measured or estimated and for which tax relief can be provided.

 

[armyvern]

Edward,

Concur 110%.