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NDP calls for immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan

Zell_Dietrich said:
I'm batting 3 out of four.  I run into allot of NDPers (I live downtown Toronto)  the only one that got away I couldn't clear up more fundamental issues like "why we went to Afghanistan in the first place" and he couldn't see the inherent hypocrisy in wanting to send troops to Darfur while still wanting to pull out of Afghanistan.   He told me that Afghanistan was a civil war we had no right to get involved in and then things kinda went down hill when I thought he implied I wanted to be 'inappropriate' with Afghan women....   He said some other things I wont repeat here,  I'll wait a bit and then confirm that it is really what he meant... then I'll be happy to post his URL,  he is a former candidate for the NDP.
Afghanistan is a civil war, but Sudan isn't? Never mind clarification on the insult. Just take it at face-value and gouge out his left eye. Then push him in front of a bus. He's too stupid to be allowed to continue to breathe. He's polluting the gene pool.
 
paracowboy said:
Afghanistan is a civil war, but Sudan isn't? Never mind clarification on the insult. Just take it at face-value and gouge out his left eye. Then push him in front of a bus. He's too stupid to be allowed to continue to breathe. He's polluting the gene pool.

I see Paracowboy is preparing to enter politics at the Federal level. I look forward to watching the all candidates debate (on television, and sitting well back from the screen......) >:D
 
I am Taliban, I see  Jack Layton win 92% support to take Canadian soldiers out of Afghanistan.

Taliban thinks to himself, if I kill more Canadian soldiers, there is a good chance that the Canadian military will be shipped back to Canada.

Memo to fellow Taliban's, Kill more Canadian soldiers and send thank you letter to Jack Layton.

Point of story: any Taliban with an IQ larger than his shoe size will see an opportunity here to exploit Jack Layton's position on Afghanistan.

All the Taliban have to do is focus their attention on the Canadian soldiers more than usual and let Jack Layton do the rest.
 
paracowboy said:
Afghanistan is a civil war, but Sudan isn't? Never mind clarification on the insult. Just take it at face-value and gouge out his left eye. Then push him in front of a bus. He's too stupid to be allowed to continue to breathe. He's polluting the gene pool.
Well shortly after I started to get "shaky" angry ( before you see red but after you stop listening with full comprehension ) I realised I had to get out of there.  I honestly hope that he thought he was just being cute and clever and didn't understand just how deeply offensive his comments were. 

And as for the Taliban increasing the attacks on Canadians because of the increased possibility it will be effective -I have to agree fully.  However, I think the Taliban are attacking as often and as well as they can.  They would attack whenever or whatever they could anyways.  But if they had a choice American troops or Canadian troops, I think they'd hit us because of the increased effect. 

I do have an unrelated question.  How are these guys affording the arms?  How understand they can "invite themselves" into a family's home and eat there for food/rent. But they can't just threaten to rape someone's daughter to get rockets guns, C4 and other explosives with timing devices.  I know it just flowes over that basicaly ungurded border with all the new 'forign insurgents'.  But who is paying for their wepons?  We would have worn out any lone private sources by now.
 
their funding flows in from several sources: narco-types buy arms for their 'employees'; various Muslim 'charities' siphon off funds for Taliban, Hezbollah, HAMAS, etc; private funds come from Saudi millionaires and like-minded in other nations; Pak ISI channels arms; untold thousands of small arms were left over from beating off the Soviets; tiny villages like Dara in the Peshawar valley can make you an AK in about a week using a foot-powered grindstone; Iran is a big supplier of arms; entire armouries were left behind when the Soviets pulled out; and on and on. Getting weapons is not difficult in that part of the world. Or, anywhere, aside from some areas in Europe, really.
 
Re: Canadians will soon be on the Knee
« Reply #69 on: Sep 1st, 2006, 11:38am »  Quote  Modify 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ths is for the first time that among NATO countries one of them publicly want their troops to leave.

I told you that Canadian will be on the Knee. British don't even now go to Sangin District of Helmand and in Kandahar Panjwaiee district Canadians are replaced by Resistance fighters. No gov and no Nato soldier can dare to go there any more.

Did you have any doubt in the Great Pashtoons fighters sacrifiec ?
http://www.afghan-web.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1153776143;start=35
 
paracowboy said:
Afghanistan is a civil war, but Sudan isn't? Never mind clarification on the insult. Just take it at face-value and gouge out his left eye. Then push him in front of a bus. He's too stupid to be allowed to continue to breathe. He's polluting the gene pool.

No worries Para, if it's who I think it is Zell was talking too, that self rightous mouth breather would have difficulty with the act of procreation, even witha picture book of instructions.  8)

Hey Zell I'll see ya and raise. I live and work in downtown TO. I get it 24/7.
 
Danjanou said:
No worries Para, if it's who I think it is Zell was talking too, that self rightous mouth breather would have difficulty with the act of procreation, even witha picture book of instructions.  8)

Hey Zell I'll see ya and raise. I live and work in downtown TO. I get it 24/7.

Well I don't think we know the same person then.  The guy I was talking about is not the 'procreating-inclined' type.  (I want to be clear I in no way wish to imply disparaging thoughts towards that group) And he ran as a candidate for the NDP.  (I wont publicly slag him for what he said to me and then post his website,  that's bad etiquette)

I do however wish to highlight common points that he said I've heard from more than one NDPer.  (These are copied from my msn history)

"it's more to take control of a country whose government was impeding western economic interests.  which includes resource interests. "

It is extremely common for ill-informed people to think that we need oil from Muslim countries.  I think they might be either misinformed or racist assuming every country where men where beards and women wear Hag's simply have oil that we are drooling over.  They often will site a oil pipeline that would make big money for a company that was owned by several American Generals and members of the American cabinet.  Now,  ask how logical it is that out of this limited economic interest would inspire those in power to fake 9-11 and then devote all that money to an invasion, and reconstruction efforts.  (I’m sure there are better arguments than what I quickly put here)

"Western intervention in Afghanistan has made the country (and region) more unstable than it has been in decades, and is making its citizens and our own country less safe.  it has accomplished absolutely nothing. "

Two points here,  we aren’t doing good there and we are making things less stable. I think we can easily bring up several areas where we are improving the lives.  Here is one
http://www.nupge.ca/news_2006/n12se06b.htm  Notice how she is a women.  She says there “The situation has changed for only 1% of Afghan women; 99% still live under oppression, lawlessness and poor health conditions”  Am I mistaken in thinking that you need to start at 1% then move on to 2% … then 3… ?  Isn’t slow progression still progress?  Now for the “destabilizing the region” argument-  How safe were we with that existing ‘stability’. 

“progressive Afghans are demanding an immediate withdrawal. in the current context, there is no constructive way for Canadian troops to contribute to rebuilding Afghanistan.”
I don’t really have a counter point to this.  All I can do is point out success stories that can easily be torn to shreds as propaganda.

“even Médecins Sans Frontières, the group that usually stays through thick and thin in wartorn countries, has pulled out of Afghanistan. there is no room for constructive rebuilding"
He is referring to:
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/publications/ideas/oneyear.cfm

If there is no possibility of constructive rebuilding,  what hope is there for Afghanistan?  Call me naïve,  but I believe there is always hope.  I can’t see how if we pull out the Taliban wouldn’t take over and make things far worse for everyone.

Oh now this is a nice read. This is basically what the party is saying.
http://www.ndp.ca/page/4119
 
This may be a bit off topic but:

I notice that whenever I argue the issue (Although the legitimacy of the war isn't an issue with me), I have to repeat at least five times that Afghanistan is not Iraq. I usually just tell them that there is almost no good arguments against the war in Afghanistan.

I had one friend tell me that we should just open our borders so that people who don't like living in Afghanistan can just immigrate here. (He was arguing that people wouldn't know better and would probably not mind the oppression of the Taliban, therefore we should do nothing about them) I got rather annoyed and said that that would be impossible. So he said. Get this. He said, "Then send a boat there to pick up people against the Taliban."

Now I don't think it takes a geography major to figure out what A-Stan is surrounded by on the world map.

I looked away for a sec, but did a double take right into his face and proceeded to give him a dragon kick to the femurs, and destroyed his left cornea with my thumb.


True Story.



Edited for making sense. (It probably still doesn't =D)
 
Jack would never step one foot in Afghanistan, because he knows that by doing so he would then be forced to change his thought process on the whole Mission.

That and of course he hasn't the stones to do it!
 
HitorMiss said:
Jack would never step one foot in Afghanistan, because he knows that by doing so he would then be forced to change his thought process on the whole Mission.

That and of course he hasn't the stones to do it!

Now, now, I have to stand up for Jack, if the polls showed that 90% of Canadians are in support of the mission Jack would be the first person to stand up for our troops.  Heck, I can see him now riding his bike on the streets of Kandahar, rainbow flag flying in the wind, Olivia behind him telling him how fast to peddle, which way to turn....
 
Time to press gang the yuppies and send them over to Afghanistan. Lets see how quick they are to criticise the military once they are forced to leave their yuppie dream world with it's bunnies, magic rainbows, singing birdies where everyone gets along beaus int heir world everyone means to do good and violence is only a tragic mistake...........
You know it's probably best not to send them over as they would probably get run over by a tank. ;D
 
warspite said:
Time to press gang the yuppies and send them over to Afghanistan.
Lad, do you even know what a yuppie is?  There is no need for you to respond.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuppie
Common traits for Yuppie would include the following:

  • Expensive car such as BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Porsche, etc
  • An expensive condo, townhouse or apartment in a "trendy" building or neighborhood
  • Trendy interior design and decorating
  • Expensive haircuts at salons
  • Manicures, designer stubble, hair streaking or other grooming habits associated with metrosexuals
  • Hobbies or activities that are generally not embraced by rural or suburban people
  • Membership at exclusive gyms
  • Engaging in conspicuous consumption (such as wearing big expensive watches)
  • Elitism, even from those with humble beginnings
Sounds like some neighours I had in both Ottawa and Baden as well as a couple of classmates on course in Toronto.  Oh, now I get it, you want to send fighter jocks and CF118's.


Sorry to the rest of you for posting off the topic but I couldn't resist.
 
And they are ratcheting up the rhetoric this morning with this published by the MP for Halifax

NDP in tune with Canadians on Afghanistan    Chronicle Herald Sunday Sept 17. 2006

By ALEXA MCDONOUGH

CANADIANS want us to support our troops by sending them on the right missions with the right mandates. The Harper Conservatives don’t understand that. They are too preoccupied with doing political favours for the U.S. president. The government has consistently failed to answer legitimate questions about the Kandahar mission in Afghanistan. Meanwhile, the gap widens between what the Harper government is telling Canadians about the mission and what is actually occurring on the ground.

We are told that we are improving the lives of Afghans, but aid groups and Afghans in the south say otherwise. We are told that the Taliban are on the run, but they continue to inflict casualties on NATO forces and harass ordinary Afghans. We are told that negotiating with the insurgents is irresponsible, but more and more people are saying a negotiated solution is, in fact, the only way to end an unbalanced, ill-defined and unwinnable conflict.

Last week, we witnessed a spectacular flip-flop by the Conservatives, who are now sending tanks to Afghanistan, only weeks after they insisted there was no need to do so.

New Democrats are in the vanguard of the growing numbers who are highly critical of the search-and-kill combat mission in southern Afghanistan. CARE Canada’s president has asserted that "this war is unwinnable if we keep concentrating on the military/technological side without undercutting the world view that motivates our enemies. Any long-term deployment of Western troops in Muslim countries will only make matters worse."

A former aide-de-camp to a British forces commander, Captain Leo Docherty, charged that the NATO-led mission had been "grotesquely clumsy" and "sucked [NATO] into a problem unsolvable by military means." In the London Telegraph, he condemned the mission as "a textbook case of how to screw up a counter-insurgency … we’ve lost the hearts and minds before we’ve even begun."

Malalai Joya, youngest member of the post-Taliban Afghan parliament, is conveniently ignored by the proponents of war. Why? Because Joya courageously speaks, despite all the inherent risks to her safety, about the escalating violence against women, about suppression of freedom of the press, and about the ugly truth that the Northern Alliance warlords, at least as repressive as the Taliban, have effectively replaced them in the Karzai government.

Pre-Taliban foreign affairs minister Najibullah Lafraie has bluntly asserted that "if the international community wants to deny the Taliban and their allies an important recruiting tool, it must withdraw Western troops from Afghanistan as soon as possible." This harsh reality poses a serious credibility problem for the Harper government and underscores the desperate need for an alternative approach. If the Taliban threat is to be eliminated and the legitimacy of a democratic Afghan government is to be established, a comprehensive peace process, putting dialogue and reconstruction ahead of blind militarism, must be launched.

What Jack Layton and the NDP know is that conflicts never really end with the total extermination of the enemy, even one as offensive as the Taliban. The Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, the IRA and the Ulster Unionists in Ireland, the Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda are but a few examples. Afghan President Hamid Karzai himself has repeatedly engaged in negotiations with the Taliban, the first such occasion being the Taliban’s surrender of Kandahar in November 2001.

Is anyone accusing Karzai of appeasing the Taliban? No, because as Greg Mills, former adviser to International Stabilization Force in Afghanistan, argued this week, no amount of firepower will defeat the Taliban and their allies. The Soviets’ bloody experience in Afghanistan attests to that. "Ultimately, the key to defeating [the counter-insurgency] is political accommodation. In Afghanistan, that means talking to the Taliban," Mills wrote.

Even Defence Minister Gordon O’Connor admitted as much recently in a moment of uncharacteristic candour: "We cannot eliminate the Taliban, not militarily anyway."

Lafraie, the former Afghan foreign minister, has called for the formation of a Muslim international peacekeeping force under UN command; a stronger focus on training the Afghan national army and police; a new intra-Afghan dialogue that includes all parties to the conflict; and a fresh focus on human development. If the Conservative government won’t listen to the NDP, then maybe it should listen to Lafraie’s constructive ideas.

The Conservatives need to be honest with Canadians. This is not the Second World War. This is not what Canadians think of as a traditional peacekeeping mission. Stephen Harper has manoeuvred Canada into a shooting war with no measures for progress, no plan for victory, and no exit strategy. It’s a mission that Canada continues to escalate while more and more NATO "allies" are refusing requests for the counter-insurgency mission. Harper would do well to understand the reasons why.

Jack Layton and the NDP are providing the critical leadership so glaringly absent from the Harper government to reach the logical conclusion: Our Canadian Forces deserve to be sent only on missions consistent with Canadian values, where the objectives are clear and where victory is attainable. This southern Afghanistan mission, begun by Paul Martin and extended by Stephen Harper, fails on all of these measures.

Alexa McDonough is MP for Halifax and foreign affairs critic for the New Democratic Party.

 
IN HOC SIGNO said:
Alexa McDonough is MP for Halifax and foreign affairs critic for the New Democratic Party.
Alexa McDonough is also an idiot. 
See my line about stupid people in large groups.
 
Our Canadian Forces deserve to be sent only on missions consistent with Canadian values, where the objectives are clear and where victory is attainable. This southern Afghanistan mission, begun by Paul Martin and extended by Stephen Harper, fails on all of these measures.

Where's the fighting spirit?

It's a defeatist attitude like that which insults the work of our soldiers.
 
IN HOC SIGNO said:
The Conservatives need to be honest with Canadians. This is not the Second World War.
If the Conservatives are not honest with Canadians, why do they keep recruiting people? Why do they make it easier for us to be recruited? Didn't the CONSERVATIVES win the election, not the NDP? As I said before, if Jack Layton was in power, would we have such a sisable force, which is growing stronger? Would we have such well trained soldiers who put their life on the line for Canada? Would we even have the Canada we know and love? I don't think so. I love Canada and our way of life, don't let Mr.Layton take it away from us, saying that Mr.Harper is not telling the truth to all of us.  :salute:  :cdn:  :salute:
 
ClaytonD said:
I notice that whenever I argue the issue (Although the legitimacy of the war isn't an issue with me), I have to repeat at least five times that Afghanistan is not Iraq. I usually just tell them that there is almost no good arguments against the war in Afghanistan.

I have noticed this same thing and it infuriates me :rage:  I have heard radio interviews with university students who complain about our involvement in Iraq and numerous time I have heard supposedly intelligent people make this comment.  To that I usually say" WE ARE NOT IN IRAQ"  Is it any wonder that Canadian opinion on Afghanistan is all over the place when they can't even get this basic precept correct?
 
IN HOC SIGNO said:
The Conservatives need to be honest with Canadians. This is not the Second World War
Thanks tips.
IN HOC SIGNO said:
This is not what Canadians think of as a traditional peacekeeping mission
Peace keeping.... peace keeping..... what the heck is this guy smoking. Peace keeping is where two people are hitting each other and you step into the middle and tell them to stop(correct me if I'm wrong but that has always been my impression).
What we're doing is hunting down an organization who is hostlie to us i.e. taliban, terrorists and terrorist supporters.
OF course it's not a traditional peacekeeping mission... It's a war and maybe if these fools could open their eyes and leave their little dream world they could see that.
IN HOC SIGNO said:
Jack Layton and the NDP are providing the critical leadership so glaringly absent from the Harper government.
I call b.s.... they're providing the whiny... unthoughtout... selfserving... crack smoking... little NDP dream world where bunnies and foxes live in Harmony and sing kumbya... rhetoric that they always do while telling us it's the only way and that it's the right way... despite elementry logic defying them.
IN HOC SIGNO said:
NDP in tune with Canadians on Afghanistan 
Oh I beg to differ...
 
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