Rank and Responsibility

[Good2Golf]

Danke SKT!

 

[MARS]

Control is the term defining who actually is "driving" the ship- similar to the aviation context. For example, even though the CO maybe on the bridge, sitting in their comfy chair, the OOW has control. Unless the CO sees something that scares the crap out of him/her, then he takes control from the OOW and issues the corrective conning orders. Things go really badly when it is not clear to the bridge crew who has control. That transfer has to happen quickly and clearly.

I'm sure an NWO will be along shortly to correct me. It is what they live to do... 8)

Around the NWO has arrived

That was actually pretty accurate SKT.  But what you explained as Control, is still likely Charge, in your example.  Everything else is correct.

I rarely gave up Control, unless I needed to, for sleep purposes, mostly, or for training purposes.  Control involves a greater latitude for autonomous decision making than Charge.  The OOW with Charge follows the planned route, adjusts speed within pre-defined limits, to maintain course or make the ETA and other decisions such as that,  as an example. Greater course or speed requirements require a call or a report to me, as the CO, to explain and recommend the new COA since I am likely retaining Control. So there is a significant amount of decision making going on and orders being given, but all within the limits of Charge.  The occasions for the OOW to call me are numerous, mine (and most COs) were about 30 different occasions, where their requirement to make a decision and give a new order exceeded the limits of Charge.

Control is divided into 3 distinct areas, involving maneuvering, the employmentweapons and sensors and the tactical employment of the ship itself. 

In layman's terms and without quoting the MARCORD/NAVORD itself, the person with whatever aspect of Control they have been delegated is the person who gets called to make decisions on that matter.  So if I delegate Control of maneuvering  to the XO overnight, then in my scenario above, the OOW with Charge calls the XO if they need to exceed the limits of Charge (i.e. a massive course or speed change). The XO may still need to call me for certain things, but basically that is the deal. 

 

[Navy_Pete]

It has been about 30 years since I first qualified as OOD.  However, I distinctly recall my first board for that qualification:  I failed.  In the board, I was asked how I would handle a situation where I was told to move the ship from one berth to another in harbour. 

I was 24 years old, fresh out of RMC, and had about six months experience on the ship.  During the board, I asked who was on my duty watch.  I was told the POOD was a senior bos'n with 20 years experience.  I failed the board because I basically turned over the task to the POOD to execute:  someone who I am (to this day) confident could have done the job safely and easily.  I had never even seen such a move; never mind be in charge of such a thing.

As OOD I was overall responsible for the safety of the ship.  I still think the idea to delegate the execution of this task to POOD was the right one.

Had that exact scenario happen to me in real life as a SLt for a short notice cold move that came up after hours. The Chief Bos'n mate (aka Buffer) of a sister ship happened to be around and I was more than happy to have him basically direct the whole thing while standing on the bridgewing beside him and the QHM pilot. Still had charge, but wasn't going to pretend I knew more than the guy with 25 years experience at doing exactly that kind of thing.  Went off without a hitch, got done safely, and even learned a few things.

I guess I'd have failed the same board!  Was a pretty good lesson to learn early though; being responsible and in charge doesn't mean you have to pretend you know better than an expert (but delegation doesn't mean disappear). Not a natural leader by any means, but that general approach has worked out pretty well so far.

Notice in Ottawa that the GOFOs/ Chiefs that do that seem to be a lot more relaxed than the micromanagers; they can give general direction and make decisions, but otherwise stay out of the weeds unless things start going off the rails. They also tend to take the time to mentor people and explain some of their thought process, which takes a bunch of effort, but seems to result in more capable subordinates, so makes it easier in the long run.  Too bad that the PER bubbles sometimes tend to favour nanomanagement as it's a more visible style of 'supervision'.

 

[Nuggs]

Care to elaborate? There are actually situations in the RCN where the NCM is running the show and the officer is just supporting.

As partial example would be a homeport duty watch aboard a submarine.

They do not employ an OOD but a DWS (Duty watch supervisor).

The qualification board is equivalent to OOD, but held by personnel of the rank PO2 and above.

Not really an officer just supporting, but frequently no officer present.

 

[Underway]

Care to elaborate? There are actually situations in the RCN where the NCM is running the show and the officer is just supporting.

INT.  The SME does the brief.  Their INT O boss might sit in but the Sgt INT OP briefs Command when its within their area of expertise.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Around the NWO has arrived

That was actually pretty accurate SKT.  But what you explained as Control, is still likely Charge, in your example.  Everything else is correct.

I rarely gave up Control, unless I needed to, for sleep purposes, mostly, or for training purposes.  Control involves a greater latitude for autonomous decision making than Charge.  The OOW with Charge follows the planned route, adjusts speed within pre-defined limits, to maintain course or make the ETA and other decisions such as that,  as an example. Greater course or speed requirements require a call or a report to me, as the CO, to explain and recommend the new COA since I am likely retaining Control. So there is a significant amount of decision making going on and orders being given, but all within the limits of Charge.  The occasions for the OOW to call me are numerous, mine (and most COs) were about 30 different occasions, where their requirement to make a decision and give a new order exceeded the limits of Charge.

Control is divided into 3 distinct areas, involving maneuvering, the employmentweapons and sensors and the tactical employment of the ship itself. 

In layman's terms and without quoting the MARCORD/NAVORD itself, the person with whatever aspect of Control they have been delegated is the person who gets called to make decisions on that matter.  So if I delegate Control of maneuvering  to the XO overnight, then in my scenario above, the OOW with Charge calls the XO if they need to exceed the limits of Charge (i.e. a massive course or speed change). The XO may still need to call me for certain things, but basically that is the deal.

Thanks MARS. I once knew all of this stuff off by heart...

 

[daftandbarmy]

Care to elaborate? There are actually situations in the RCN where the NCM is running the show and the officer is just supporting.

During a fire fight or a search op. The soldier who can see the enemy, or the suspect device, is in charge as far as I'm concerned, until we can suppress the enemy position, or get on with the clearance.

 

[stoker dave]

I guess I'd have failed the same board! 

Thanks for the validation.

This thread (or perhaps another) was saying how the advice of senior NCOs was being ignored by very junior officers.  The point is that I think some of the very junior officers were trained (or at least somewhat influenced) that way as illustrated in the example above.

As a follow up, I passed my second OOD board.  When presented with a scenario in which I had little or no experience, I was the "take charge" guy who was hands-on directing everything.  I am sure that would not have ended well and certainly isn't how I would approach a real situation, but I passed the board.  But I think that speaks to another problem altogether.

I guess the pinnacle of my OOD experience was during Gulf War I.  My duty watch was over 100 people including an air defence battery and armed soldiers.  But I digress.  Sorry for the thread drift. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

Thanks for the validation.

This thread (or perhaps another) was saying how the advice of senior NCOs was being ignored by very junior officers.  The point is that I think some of the very junior officers were trained (or at least somewhat influenced) that way as illustrated in the example above.

As a follow up, I passed my second OOD board.  When presented with a scenario in which I had little or no experience, I was the "take charge" guy who was hands-on directing everything.  I am sure that would not have ended well and certainly isn't how I would approach a real situation, but I passed the board.  But I think that speaks to another problem altogether.

I guess the pinnacle of my OOD experience was during Gulf War I.  My duty watch was over 100 people including an air defence battery and armed soldiers.  But I digress.  Sorry for the thread drift.

Just to provide a peek at the other side of the coin, one of my first Platoon Sergeants was incompetent, mistrusted by everyone, and a violent bully as well.

At a very early point in my military career this was a good learning experience too, like how to load your most SNCO on C&P and, meanwhile, during operations, lead through the Section Commanders to ensure survival of the platoon members  

 

[Pusser]

If you mean "we" in a RCN sense, I'll acknowledge that.  CAF-wide, that is not always the case.  Some organizations within the CAF have a different (and non-personal relation based) experience/responsibilities valuation environment, where rank is not the prime discriminator of who directs what actions; however, not all CAF members may have been exposed to such an environment.

Regards
G2G

In the Navy, position is generally more important than rank.  Although the ship's establishment tends to put personnel of appropriate rank into positions, the posting plot does not always cooperate.  However that doesn't change the relationship.  The captain of a ship is still the captain, even if the ship is carrying more senior officers and even if one of those more senior officers is the captain's boss.  I've witnessed a situation where the XO was actually junior in rank to one of the department heads, but he was still the XO and, therefore, held command authority over the department head. As a department head, I myself was of equal rank to the XO, but senior to him - didn't matter.

I was in an interesting situation once though where I had to stand up for my rights.  The XO felt that only Naval Ops officers should be OOD in foreign ports (ostensibly because of the "force protection" requirement).  He further intended that I (the most senior officer in the Wardroom) would stand foreign port duty watches as 2OOD.  We had a closed door discussion where I made it clear that I would not be standing 2OOD under somebody junior to me, particularly anyone who was still in grade school when I was serving my first tour at sea as a HOD. I also explained that not only did I have more actual sea time than most of the other officers on board (certainly all the engineers), but that as a LogO I had spent some time on deployed ops and so I was actually more experienced in force protection than anyone else in the Wardroom.  Luckily, he conceded, but I was a little shocked that he had even considered this.  Experience and qualifications are all well and good, but that does not mean that rank and seniority are completely ignored.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Aircrew. It is not at all unusual to have a lower ranking aircraft captain legally entrusted with directing the actions of a crew composed of higher ranking individuals- including in some cases the aircraft captain's own Commanding Officer.

The wise aircraft captain knows and understands that his/her power only lasts for the duration of the flight. No one much minds being yelled at in a "preservation of life situation". It is not a good practice to treat your higher ranking "subordinates" poorly in non-urgent situations, however...

This exits similarly in the NCM aircrew world, related to Category and/or appointments.  In the LRP fleet, NCMs have a Category we qualify for.  After our initial course, we are *B* Cat (Basic Category) operators (same goes for FEs).  After an upgrade (OJT) program, phase evals and a final check box and flight, we then qualify as *A Cat* (Advanced Category).  Regarding "who is the boss" on the aircraft, simulator, trg...an A Cat Cpl has authority over any B Cat Cpl/MCpl/Sgt/WO/MWO/CWO.  I've been in the situation before where as the crew Lead on a deployment, one of my B Cats was the Sqn AES Op Leader (MWO).

On top of that, the FOM (Flight Ops Manual) directs certain appointments that the CO shall appoint, one of them is the Lead AES Op.  Lead AES Ops must be A Cat and are recommended to the CO by the Sqn AES Op Leader.  Once appointed by the CO, the Lead is responsible for things including the task assignment, discipline and training of all crew AES Ops.  However, a good Lead AES Op will also understand they are responsible to the Lead ACSO, who in turn is responsible to the crew commander.  The CO can giveth, and also taketh away...

There's an....'urban legend'...about a flight where the RADAR OP saw a significant Wx hazard (squall line), gave recommendations to the flight deck for deviations.  Those were considered and bypassed;  aircraft entered the Wx at 16k, exited at 5k, all changes in altitude were...involuntary in nature.  Major icing, all the fun stuff.  End of mission, RTB.  When the RADAR OP (an A Cat) realized they were going to penetrate the line, he called for the tac tube to secure and strap in, according to the urban legend.  (no, it wasn't me...)

A good example of how rank, command, SME/positional knowledge, qualifications etc must all work together correctly to function as intended. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Thought I'd add, I am enjoying these threads on the inner workings of the RCN.  Folks like me can end up on the fling-wing side and change our hotels for bong bongs and flying stations, so I appreciate the insight.

 

[Navy_Pete]

In the Navy, position is generally more important than rank.  Although the ship's establishment tends to put personnel of appropriate rank into positions, the posting plot does not always cooperate.  However that doesn't change the relationship.  The captain of a ship is still the captain, even if the ship is carrying more senior officers and even if one of those more senior officers is the captain's boss.  I've witnessed a situation where the XO was actually junior in rank to one of the department heads, but he was still the XO and, therefore, held command authority over the department head. As a department head, I myself was of equal rank to the XO, but senior to him - didn't matter.

I was in an interesting situation once though where I had to stand up for my rights.  The XO felt that only Naval Ops officers should be OOD in foreign ports (ostensibly because of the "force protection" requirement).  He further intended that I (the most senior officer in the Wardroom) would stand foreign port duty watches as 2OOD.  We had a closed door discussion where I made it clear that I would not be standing 2OOD under somebody junior to me, particularly anyone who was still in grade school when I was serving my first tour at sea as a HOD. I also explained that not only did I have more actual sea time than most of the other officers on board (certainly all the engineers), but that as a LogO I had spent some time on deployed ops and so I was actually more experienced in force protection than anyone else in the Wardroom.  Luckily, he conceded, but I was a little shocked that he had even considered this.  Experience and qualifications are all well and good, but that does not mean that rank and seniority are completely ignored.

There are dedicated FPOs now, but on my last deployment the OOD rotated through the HODS (heads of departments), WeapsO and OpsO, so basically the senior folks in the wardroom. 

That was the nice thing on the 280s with LCdr HODs; there was much less of that kind of thing, as you had the rank as well as the seniority, and the relationship with the XO was quite different.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Is the AirDet Commander (a Maj, if I'm not mistaken) a HOD or equivalent once they are embarked?  I'd be grateful if the command/control relationship between the CO and Det Comd could be explained (or, if already on here, point me to the thread...my search came up with nodda).  What happens if the CO says "I want you to put your egg beater in the air in 2 hours" and the Air Maj says "none of my crews are rested, the orders say we can not legally fly for X hours"?

Likewise, how does the Det MWO function with the Cox'n for the things those ladies and gents are concerned with?

 

[brihard]

Is the AirDet Commander (a Maj, if I'm not mistaken) a HOD or equivalent once they are embarked?  I'd be grateful if the command/control relationship between the CO and Det Comd could be explained (or, if already on here, point me to the thread...my search came up with nodda).  What happens if the CO says "I want you to put your egg beater in the air in 2 hours" and the Air Maj says "none of my crews are rested, the orders say we can not legally fly for X hours"?

Likewise, how does the Det MWO function with the Cox'n for the things those ladies and gents are concerned with?

If I may ask the favour, can we break it down a level farther and give the necessary context so that a curious army NCO could get it? I have neither navy nor Air Force exposure, but I am very curious about these chain of command relationships just from a standpoint of expanding my professional knowledge on ‘ways to do things’. I do find it interesting; I just have very little foundational knowledge to start from.

I gather that Hel Air Det is a best with some uniqueness and maye autonomy (?) onboard ship? I can infer it has some necessary technical independence on ship and I imagine the SNCO would quite rightly few them as ‘his(her)’ troops, but what does this look like day to day, and how does this interface with the ship’s command team?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Let me try to answer you, EITS. But be mindful that my answer is based on knowledge that is out of date, so someone can correct me if need be.

First of all, the Airdet Commander IS considered a HOD. She his the air department HOD when an Airdet is embarked.

Like any other department, the CO, who has command over ALL at sea, can order the department to do things that are contrary to "general" orders or instructions of their trade, in the same way that he/she can order the Engineering department to do something that is against the Naval Engineering Manual - which are "orders" governing the operation of the Engineering department. However, this said, any CO doing so would have to file a report to superiors detailing the reasons for his acting in this way with the Airdet commander also doing the same on her side of the House (that is through her wing) (or on the engineering side for engineering decisions). Either way, that CO would have to have damn good - solid -reasons to have done so against the rules or the advice of an Airdet commander to avoid very unpleasant consequences for her career.

In other words, "fly me over to the other ship because I don't feel like a trip in the Rhib" is not going to cut it, while "fly this medical emergency casualty to the AOR because he needs the immediate assistance of the medical team there to save his life" will,  if the helo crew hasn't got it's beauty sleep.

As for the MWO relationship with the Coxn, you have to remember that the Coxn is not in any department's chain of command. The CPO2's and MWO report to the XO and CO through their HOD's. The Coxn is sort of "staff" to the process and his/her role is more general oversight of administration and discipline while acting in an advisory role to the CPO2's/PO1's and MWO's where personnel issues are concerned. Her (the Coxn's ) relationship to the Airdet MWO is of the same nature and there is no problem that I've ever heard of in doing that.

When we say, in Canada, that the Coxn is part of the "command team", that is because the group composed of the CO, the XO and Coxn is really made up of the CO, being in command, and the XO/Coxn acting as her adviser whenever matters leave time for discussions and the bringing of differing points of views. A normal situation would see the team get in the CO's cabin, with the CO explaining the facts of the situation, then usually turning to the Coxn and saying "What do you think, Chief?", then followed by "XO?", then breaking into a general discussion until an apparent consensus is reached - or it becomes clear that it's one of those situation where the CO must be the final arbiter.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Is the AirDet Commander (a Maj, if I'm not mistaken) a HOD or equivalent once they are embarked?  I'd be grateful if the command/control relationship between the CO and Det Comd could be explained (or, if already on here, point me to the thread...my search came up with nodda).  What happens if the CO says "I want you to put your egg beater in the air in 2 hours" and the Air Maj says "none of my crews are rested, the orders say we can not legally fly for X hours"?

Likewise, how does the Det MWO function with the Cox'n for the things those ladies and gents are concerned with?

They are a HOD equivalent (but are on the duty airO watch rotation vice OOD). I'm sure someone else can explain the command/control relationship from the orders, but depends a lot on the personality on how well it actually works. 

Good airdet is part of the crew, and tries to make sure they are able to support ship operations as much as possible.  That means looking ahead, and adjusting the schedule as required so you aren't stuck in a crew rest period when you are doing something the helo would be useful for.  MWO is one of the CHODs, so same responsibilities as the other CPO2s to the Coxn, and same idea there.  In general, they have the same administrative roles as other HODs/CHODs in terms of reporting to the Command team, and should work with the ops team and other departments to make sure that schedule conflicts are sorted and the capabilities the helo brings is there when required. A lot of the deck evolutions, landing/take off and other things they do limit what the ship can be doing at the time, so they can't just change plans without talking to other HODs.

Bad airdet doesn't integrate at all, ignores the ships plans, and does things like tell the CO they can't fly for a real SAR because their 12 hours down didn't cover the 8 hour crew rest because was interrupted by a smoke detector getting set off (which triggers a rapid investigation by a small team).  :facepalm:

To be fair, the ship's crew can be hostile when they roll on, so the 'us vs them' can start pretty quick if there aren't specific efforts to stop that. Pitching on all ship activities like cleaning stations and bringing the garbage ashore is a small thing that helps a lot, but the PMCs of the messes welcoming them in is pretty key. 

Have seen both good and bad; generally people get the crew rest bit, but it's when it starts getting abused that it causes issues. A lot of navy types know exactly what the limitations really are, and when they can push it, so the det loses credibility really quick if they start trying to stretch it to cover any time there is something going on that needs bodies.

For tech things they still go back to 1 CAD, but there is lots of interface with the navy equipment, so spent a lot of time working with the Maj to make sure he had enough helo fuel, the bear trap and other helo support kit was working, and things were otherwise okay. We shared a cabin, which actually worked out pretty good for keeping track of their plans and sorting things out.

For Brihard;
Air det brings a bunch of kit with them, but there are a number of fitted helo support systems, and the engineer on the ship (that was me) is responsible for the quality of the helo fuel, and the working order of that whole system.  There is a stoker, electrician, and a few people trained as helo-crash fire fighters from my department that were part of all the flight ops.  When there isn't an air det embarked, there are a number of bosns that are trained to do the deck evolutions, and a few people that are trained to direct the take off/landings as well. There is a whole qualification for that (SWOAD, Ship without air det) and normally part of an embarked air det's role is to make sure the ship company stay current on their individual quals, and new people get trained up as well.

The air det shouldn't really be autonomous at all; everyone has their own separate reports back to some kind of shore organization (I had my own technical oversight ashore).  Unless all the HODs/CHODs are marching in lockstep to the CO's plan, it can be a bit of a mess.  We met formally as a group for at least 30 mins every other day with the XO/Coxn, and the CO normally got all the HODs together a few days before a port visit, but were constantly talking outside of that anyway.  Not really sure if the comparison works, but guessing it's the equivalent to a platoon made up of sections that come from a mix of inf, log, eng, comms etc all in the field under a single commander.  You can each do a good job at your specific area, but unless you coordinate with everyone else, it won't work on the whole.

 

[Pusser]

There are dedicated FPOs now, but on my last deployment the OOD rotated through the HODS (heads of departments), WeapsO and OpsO, so basically the senior folks in the wardroom. 

That was the nice thing on the 280s with LCdr HODs; there was much less of that kind of thing, as you had the rank as well as the seniority, and the relationship with the XO was quite different.

My little story actually occurred in a 280...

On another note, it is worth mentioning that although the XO is second in command of the ship, HODs only report to him/her on administrative issues.  On operational matters, all HODs report directly to the CO (and the wise ones make sure they keep the XO informed...).

 

[daftandbarmy]

Not really sure if the comparison works, but guessing it's the equivalent to a platoon made up of sections that come from a mix of inf, log, eng, comms etc all in the field under a single commander.  You can each do a good job at your specific area, but unless you coordinate with everyone else, it won't work on the whole.

You're giving us too much credit, I'm afraid. The Infantry will always impose their will on the others you mention (whether or not it makes sense) and then charge the machine guns frontally #becausespartamatters

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Is the AirDet Commander (a Maj, if I'm not mistaken) a HOD or equivalent once they are embarked?  I'd be grateful if the command/control relationship between the CO and Det Comd could be explained (or, if already on here, point me to the thread...my search came up with nodda).  What happens if the CO says "I want you to put your egg beater in the air in 2 hours" and the Air Maj says "none of my crews are rested, the orders say we can not legally fly for X hours"?

Likewise, how does the Det MWO function with the Cox'n for the things those ladies and gents are concerned with?

As was noted by several others, the HELAIRDET Comd is HOD of the Air Dept. according to SHOPs, he/she is actually the final authority on whether it is safe to launch a helo. The Ship CO cannot actually over rule the HELAIRDET Comd  in this area (many have have tried). It normally does not come to that. But, I have worked for a few COs who liked to push the envelope more than was prudent and it was clear that they did not actually understand the ramifications of what they were ordering me to do.

In addition to following all relevant RCN orders while embarked, HELAIRDETS also answer to 1 CAD on the residual authorities that he retains when he transfers a Det to the RCN (flight safety, airworthiness, training and advancement of crews, to name a few).

Crew rest gets tossed around a lot as a punchline, but it is something that the RCN is only slowly staring to get. By regulations (not negotiable) my crews and maintainers can only work 42 hrs in a rolling 3 day period, with no day lasting longer than 16hrs and every rest period (note I did not say sleep period) must be 8 hrs long and uninterrupted. Interupt it, and the clock re-starts. There is a legend about a Sea King TACCO drifting off to sleep while in the dip in the North Atlantic, late one night after a long series of night ASWEXs. He woke up suddenly and looked around at the crew, hoping no one had noticed him asleep. To his horror, he noticed that the entire crew was asleep. Near as anyone could tell afterward, the helo maintained a stable hover on its own for 45 mins. That is scary stuff. That said, I have also flown all night on a real SAR in the Arabian Sea and totally blown my crew duty day- the orders specifically allow for us to break orders for the preservation Of life.

Back to the RCN - I have routinely watched OOWs take the ship when they have not slept properly in days or weeks. They are in charge of a billion dollar warship and responsible for the lives of 250 people and they are so sleep deprived that they barely know their own names. I don't get it, myself.