Rank and Responsibility

[Navy_Pete]

Back to the RCN - I have routinely watched OOWs take the ship when they have not slept properly in days or weeks. They are in charge of a billion dollar warship and responsible for the lives of 250 people and they are so sleep deprived that they barely know their own names. I don't get it, myself.

That's a common complaint; TBH wish there was something similar on the RCN side.  Got to have the pleasure of being the damage control officer for a real fire after a month of 2-3 hours of broken sleep a night, and have seen COs barely able to see (which is normally when everything short of emergencies go to the XO).  Can't drink at sea, but can run everyone hard enough that they are about as functional as blackout drunks.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I should also add that, in my two decades of flying in the MH community, i have worked with far more good ships than bad ones. Some have been so much fun to be a part of and we were so well integrated that we really didn't want to back to the Sqn at the end the of the sail. The bad ships were almost always caused by a Commanding Officer who micromanaged or who put himself first and grandstanded on the backs of his people. A CO who looks out for his crew and who has a decent tolerance for minor errors as people learn, is almost always rewarded by a crew who will move heaven and earth for them. A good sense of humour doesnt hurt either. Sailing can suck at times and the crew will usually attempt to spice things up. If the CO can roll with that and laugh at some of the antics (as long As they are safe and in safe and in reasonable taste) everyone relaxes a bit.

The nice things about being at sea are the autonomy (although the Air Div occasionally likes to try to reach into the ship with a 6000NM screw driver and give direction. Usually without consulting the RCN CoC, which puts the Det Comd in a bad spot) and the simplicity of life- you eat, sleep, fly and workout. That is about it.

 

[Underway]

There is a legend about a Sea King TACCO drifting off to sleep while in the dip in the North Atlantic, late one night after a long series of night ASWEXs. He woke up suddenly and looked around at the crew, hoping no one had noticed him asleep. To his horror, he noticed that the entire crew was asleep. Near as anyone could tell afterward, the helo maintained a stable hover on its own for 45 mins. That is scary stuff.

If its a legend it's awful close to the truth with one pilot I met, who happened to be the one flying that aircraft.  Details were different but situation (everyone asleep for 45 min) exactly the same.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Great info in the replies, thanks for that.  The RCAF recently implemented a fatigue risk management program.  Aside from the crew rest/duty day regs, our orders also allow any crewmember to self-ground, including for fatigue. 

...the entire crew was asleep...the helo maintained a stable hover on its own for 45 minutes.  ~shudder~  That made my blood run cold when I read it. 

 

[Underway]

Great info in the replies, thanks for that.  The RCAF recently implemented a fatigue risk management program.  Aside from the crew rest/duty day regs, our orders also allow any crewmember to self-ground, including for fatigue. 

...the entire crew was asleep...the helo maintained a stable hover on its own for 45 minutes.  ~shudder~  That made my blood run cold when I read it.

Now I may be wrong here, but I understood that the Sea King has a hover assist function.  Not sure what that means exactly but if that story is more than a "fish story" then it probably saved the life of the aircrew.

As for fatigue for OOW, the crews going on deployment are very stripped down.  They are only sailing with 3 watchkeepers and 3 2OOW.  Ideally by the end of the 6 month deployment most of, if not all the 2OOW will have their tickets thus reducing workload on the qualified watchkeepers.  However the qual'd watchkeepers still have divisional and day work to do.  DeckO for example is one of them.  With the aircrew embarked and MTOG embarked, OJT billets etc... there are not a lot of extra bunks to go around. 

The last ship I sailed on the CO threw out the book on sleeping during "working hours" for OOW's.  I believe the statement was "If you are tired sleep, don't abuse it and it won't be taken away. Naps are fine.  Rack monsters are not."

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Now I may be wrong here, but I understood that the Sea King has a hover assist function.  Not sure what that means exactly but if that story is more than a "fish story" then it probably saved the life of the aircrew.

As for fatigue for OOW, the crews going on deployment are very stripped down.  They are only sailing with 3 watchkeepers and 3 2OOW.  Ideally by the end of the 6 month deployment most of, if not all the 2OOW will have their tickets thus reducing workload on the qualified watchkeepers.  However the qual'd watchkeepers still have divisional and day work to do.  DeckO for example is one of them.  With the aircrew embarked and MTOG embarked, OJT billets etc... there are not a lot of extra bunks to go around. 

The last ship I sailed on the CO threw out the book on sleeping during "working hours" for OOW's.  I believe the statement was "If you are tired sleep, don't abuse it and it won't be taken away. Naps are fine.  Rack monsters are not."

The Sea King has a coupler, which allows for a stable hover. The Coupler greatly reduces pilot workload, especially at night or in bad weather. It is a masterpiece of anolog technology, straight out of the 1960s. No pilot would dream of taking his hands away from the controls and trusting his life to it, however.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

This is something that has always bothered me, and apparently bothers some of our NATO allies (i'm starting to hear); the CO of a ship does not have absolute tactical control over his helicopter, which means neither would a NATO fleet commander. Other NATO countries (like the US) have air forces that belong to the Navy, not to the Air Force. Not so much so in Canada; all of our Air Forces answer ultimately to 1 CAD.

It is a subtle distinction that even Winnipeg struggles with de temps en temps, but on operations, 1 CAD does not own any aircraft.  The Air Component Commander does, and he is subordinate to Comd CJOC.  Likewise, the Navy does not sail on operations - the Maritime Component Commander owns all ships, and he too is subordinate to Comd CJOC.

The fact that those individuals (and their HQs) are both quadruple-hatted, and that we do not have a Land Component Commander significantly muddies those waters...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The other 1% of the time happens when the ship is sailing for the weekend, and the air crew is about to leave on a routine mission near Halifax on a Friday, but for some reason bring their suit cases with them. Wouldn't it surprise you to find out that they end up having a mechanical issue just as Shearwater becomes the closer landing site? So they land at Shearwater and can't come back to the ship until the helo is fixed on Monday, so they get to go home. Good thing they had their suitcases with them...

Maybe I'm not getting the context quite right, but I also take an overnight bag on certain occasions;  getting launched on a SAR on a weekend, doing a LRPF (pilot trainer away from the local area).  On time we were in Andøya, and had a part shipped over that had to be picked up in Oslo; those of us who went brought an overnight bag.  If we'd of broken down and *ended up in Oslo, at least we'd of had civies and a toothbrush.  Is there any chance the suitcases were 'good planning', like it would be on lots of occasions for fixed wingers?

* no one would have been upset to spend a few days in Olso...but no one would intentional doing something to ground the aircraft either.

if the CO (or fleet commander) was to say "were all out of missiles and main gum ammo; our last option to save the HVU is to have the Cyclone close to point blank range and try and pepper that enemy warship's fire control radar with the C6", well they counldn't do that. They'd have to call Winnipeg first and get permission.

Ya, ya I remember seeing a video about this type of warfare!  8)

"...command turns to a desperate, new tactic..." seems to be a fitting summary.  :rofl: 

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Eye In The Sky] ..but no one would intentional doing something to ground the aircraft either.
[/quote]
Especially not the infantry when accidentally exposed to sweet airforce accommodations  ;D

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I will not defend the RCAF on the tactical control of Maritime Helicopters. They didnt bother to read the NATO Maritime doctrine and what it says about who controls Naval Air Forces (the MCC does, although those forces may well be coordinated on a theatre wide, joint ATO- not that helicopters usually show up on the ATO. We are too "small potatoes"). Instead they have created a real doctrinal muddle. It could be solved through the creation of a MAOC to mirror the CAOC, or the Air Div could just accept that MH is different when they write the TOCA message.

As for taking overnight bags while flying- i do it when i am actually doing a run ashore for parts, medevac or a pax transfer. I broke down once while at a USN base while on a medevac. I was smart enough to at least have brought my flight suit so I could get out of my immersion suit, but my Aircraft Captain was stuck in his all day, until we could find the NEX and buy some clothes. Contrary to popular myth, no one would purposely u/s an aircraft. On the other hand, no one is going to fly an unserviceable aircraft back to the ship over open water. We dont love you guys that much. Taking a day pack is just prudent.

 

[PuckChaser]

Folks, just a reminder to steer away from specific force protection levels/distances that someone could use to do us harm downrange.

- Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Especially not the infantry when accidentally exposed to sweet airforce accommodations  ;D

//recruiting tanget on//

Honestly...it's a myth.  Our Accn aren't that great when we're away from homeplate (see picture below).  There have been a few times I've even had to share 2 bedroom apartment with another crewmember!  rly:



Honestly, we do have it pretty jammy.  The worst Accn I've stayed in during my time on Sqn?  Cold Lake, during MF/MG.  Scotland is always a good go.

See your local PSO shop about opportunities to remuster to Commissioned and Non Commissioned aircrew trades.

//recruiting tanget off//

 

[dimsum]

Honestly, we do have it pretty jammy.  The worst Accn I've stayed in during my time on Sqn?  Cold Lake, during MF/MG.  Scotland is always a good go.

In Scotland, I stayed in an actual trailer park once.  It was amusing more than anything else (even the CO laughed and took pictures), but those things aren't very soundproof against the Scottish wind.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

In Scotland, I stayed in an actual trailer park once.  It was amusing more than anything else (even the CO laughed and took pictures), but those things aren't very soundproof against the Scottish wind.

Was that recently?

 

[daftandbarmy]

In Scotland, I stayed in an actual trailer park once.  It was amusing more than anything else (even the CO laughed and took pictures), but those things aren't very soundproof against the Scottish wind.

.... or mating rituals

 

[stoker dave]

The XO felt that only Naval Ops officers should be OOD in foreign ports (ostensibly because of the "force protection" requirement). 

Maybe I was the basis for that decision?

I was the Assistant Marine Systems Engineering Officer (A/MSEO) and was OOD while alongside in the Gulf during Gulf War I.  While I had a very well qualified duty watch to work with, I was probably not the best choice for that job.  My knowledge of naval operations and force protection was probably close to zero. 

I figured when I was OOD that if no one got hurt and the boat didn't float away from the dock, sink or burn to the waterline, my watch was successful.  If the lights and air conditioning stayed on for the full 24 hours, that was cause for celebration. 

 

[MARS]

I figured when I was OOD that if no one got hurt and the boat didn't float away from the dock, sink or burn to the waterline, my watch was successful.  If the lights and air conditioning stayed on for the full 24 hours, that was cause for celebration.

Broadly speaking, this is still the barometer for success even today.  Sounds like you had it about right, priority-wise.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I figured when I was OOD that if no one got hurt and the boat didn't float away from the dock, sink or burn to the waterline, my watch was successful.  If the lights and air conditioning stayed on for the full 24 hours, that was cause for celebration.

I echo MARS' comment. As a CO that's about all I expected from my orderly officer, who is, was anyway circa 1980, roughly the same as the Navy's OOD: if by morning there had been no riots, not many soldiers (not many more than usual) were in cells or hospital and none of my building had burned down then I reckoned the OO had not failed ... not any more than i expected any subaltern to fail at any task, anyway.