ROTP after High School Questions

[chris_log]

True.  As for capacity, there are more availabilities than just reserve units.  For example, there are the various CBG HQs in Ontario (31 in London, 32 in Toronto, 33 in Ottawa) plus LFCA HQ in Toronto, LFCA TC Meaford, various CBG Battle Schools, etc.  In terms of opportunities, there are more organizations out there that could share the load than just the units

Agreed. I could be done. But now we need to ask, how do we go about it? I don't believe the various HQ's have anything more then a skeletal staff around at night (when students can realistically participate, due to classes etc). There's no school close to Meaford (or any training centres at all), ditto to the battle schools. And I know that I'm sure as heck not going to commute up to Meaford from Guelph a couple times a week. It's a good idea, but not a viable or workable idea.

While waiting courses, sticking them in CFRCs is wrong - there are many other places where they could learn things.  Sounds like laziness on the part of the ULO staff in not finding decent positions for these folks to work and learn.

Partially true. ULO staffs are overworked, understaffed and it is hard to find positions for ROTP types for one very big reason. MONEY. We're required to go on EWAT when we have time before/in between courses and annual leave. However, no one is willing to pay for our R&Q to send us somewhere meaningful. So, we either get stuck polishing trophies at a museum or making coffee at a CFRC or local unit OR or have to find our own opportunities close to where a family member lives so that we can stay there at no cost. There is no budget for EWAT/OJT for ROTP (with the exception of certain classifications that have little or no 'formal' courses and much of the training is done as OJT, or who don't send troops on Phase training before they graduate). I've personally tried some novel ways to get 'funded' to go away for OJT, but all came to naught (I had a great summer of OJT regardless, thankfully I have parent's who live close to a major CF 'area').

 

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

Agreed. I could be done. But now we need to ask, how do we go about it? I don't believe the various HQ's have anything more then a skeletal staff around at night

 

[Lumber]

However, no one is willing to pay for our R&Q to send us somewhere meaningful.

I pay R&Q for the majority of the year. Can't you pay for it while on OJT?

 

[chris_log]

I pay R&Q for the majority of the year. Can't you pay for it while on OJT?

So,

You want me to pay for rent on my place at school, plus R&Q for wherever I'm at (either on base or on the economy)  :. No way, I ain't paying for two places at once. Remember, I pay for a place all year long whereas you kids move out of your rooms after the school year ends. You've gotta remember that RMC and the rest of the world work differently. I can't sign 8 month leases here and it sucks moving in and out every school year (it's stupid too). I get my R&Q paid for in the summer because I already have a place that I'm paying for, therefore I am considered to be on TD from my permanent place of work (my school) and get all the associated costs paid for. You RMC kids do (or at least should, if you don't, there's a major problem) be paying R&Q when you're away on summer taskings because you don't maintain a permanent place of residence during the summer that you have to pay for.

There are Class A reservists in all of these HQs, so each usually has a parade night in addition to the daily activities - IIRC 32 CBG's used to be Tuesday.  In terms of going to Meaford from Guelph, for example, would it be workable for you if you were placed on TD or given the same travel allowance that reservists are entitled to when they live far away from their unit and drive or commute in to parade?

Really? I never knew that. As for my Meaford comment, it's 2-3 hours for me to get there, minimum. Probably closer to 3. Now, are we talking about working there in the summer on OJT/EWAT or as a weeknight thingy a la a PRes unit. If it's the former, sure I'd do it if I get the associated TD and travel reimbursement. If the latter, then no.

31 and 32 CBG used to each run their own battle schools in Toronto and London.  They were an organizational body which oversaw the staff running in-house JLC (PLQ now) and weekend Basic, QL3 and other entry-level individual training courses - course staff were drawn from across the CBG, but the Battle School's small staff oversaw everything, conducted ln, ops, admin functions and maintained the Standards Cell.  They also paraded at night, plus some of these courses also used to have a parade/training night where the course staff and students would all train at one armouries or another.  Not sure if this is still the case

Ack. But again, what could an OCdt contribute beyond being a poorly admin clerk? My point is that forcing civvie-u types to parade is a good idea, but unworkable with the numbers, lack of experience etc.

Not sure what EWAT is.  To add to the difficulty, while on the SUTL (all ROTP fall under the Subsidised University Training List) , BTL, ATL or other training employment, I believe you fall under Chief Military Personnel, not the Army.  This of course generates problems because while the Army may want you, have jobs for you, etc, there is a bureuacratic firewall in that you don't 'belong' to the Army.  Funny that you mention money, though, because systemically the money is there, particularly for things that rectify individual training problems... the RFT and PAT/PAR resolution by posting them to OJT at units being a couple examples.

EWAT = Employment While Awaiting Training

And what you describe is the exact problem. When trying to set up an across-country EWAT job for myself, I found orgs (like the unit getting me) willing to pay my TD, R&Q etc but were unable to as I didn't belong to them, the brigade, the area or even the Army. I tried various options, such as asking if the Log Branch itself would fund it (considering it was a golden opportunity for training). All to naught as I belonged to CMP and they were unwilling (and unable) to pay for me nor approve an 'outside' org paying either. The money is there, but it is a matter of who belongs to who.

My solution was simply to go on OJT in an area where I could stay with my parents. It worked, and it was an excellent experience. The system needs work, but again, to go back to my original point, making it easier for legions of untrained and often dopey OCdt's to descend on units could cause problems as well (imagine the deluge of EWAT requests that CANSOFCOM would get each summer). The current system works if you're motivated and able to find employment yourself. As with many things in the CF (pay, uniforms, kit etc) EWAT/OJT for ROTP is something that cannot be left to the big green machine, you have to do most of the legwork yourself.

 

[George Wallace]

You want me to pay for rent on my place at school, plus R&Q for wherever I'm at (either on base or on the economy)  :. No way, I ain't paying for two places at once. Remember, I pay for a place all year long whereas you kids move out of your rooms after the school year ends. You've gotta remember that RMC and the rest of the world work differently. I can't sign 8 month leases here and it sucks moving in and out every school year (it's stupid too). I get my R&Q paid for in the summer because I already have a place that I'm paying for, therefore I am considered to be on TD from my permanent place of work (my school) and get all the associated costs paid for. You RMC kids do (or at least should, if you don't, there's a major problem) be paying R&Q when you're away on summer taskings because you don't maintain a permanent place of residence during the summer that you have to pay for.

You may want to edit that.  It doesn't make sense.

As for 12 month lease, you are one of a very small majority minority of university students who is doing this.  Most, unless living with their parents, only lease for the school year, as they will have to pay rent, etc. wherever they find employment.   

 

[benny88]

You may want to edit that.  It doesn't make sense.

As for 12 month lease, you are one of a very small majority of university students who is doing this.  Most, unless living with their parents, only lease for the school year, as they will have to pay rent, etc. wherever they find employment.   

This isn't meant to be smarmy, but is that a typo? 12 month leases are by far more popular, at least in London. I've only heard of an 8 month lease once or twice.



Edit: That does sound smarmy, sorry. Just looking for clarification.

 

[George Wallace]

Yup.....must have been a vocal minority posing as a majority...  ;D




We could get into the economics practiced by most university students in their habits of renting residence where they study and then where they find summer employment, but it may be detracting from the current subject, other than pointing out that the CF doesn't make you pay for R&Q in two locations at the same time.  Civilians don't have that advantage; they either pay for two, or let one go and spend time finding another apartment each school year. 

 

[chris_log]

You may want to edit that.  It doesn't make sense.

As for 12 month lease, you are one of a very small majority minority of university students who is doing this.  Most, unless living with their parents, only lease for the school year, as they will have to pay rent, etc. wherever they find employment.   

News to me, 12 month leases are the norm these days. It's not like you have a choice, you need a place to live and landlords exploit that. I know that in Windsor, London, Tri-cities, Guelph, Hamilton, Toronto et al 12 month leases are the norm in student areas...the only exception being university residences which have semester by semester contracts. Maybe it was different in your day, but not now. At least not in Ontario. And regardless, I'm not moving in and out at the beginning and end of every school year for four years, thats stupid.

As for my comment you suggested I edit, I'm not sure how to better word it. RMC kids don't pay R&Q at RMC during the summer (unless they stay there for whatever reason). It's my understanding that they get new rooms every semester. Therefore, RMC kids SHOULD be paying R&Q at St Jean, Gagetown, Borden etc because they aren't paying it elsewhere...unlike myself who, during the summer, has to pay rent at home.

 

[George Wallace]

"You RMC kids do (_____) be paying R&Q when you're away on summer taskings because you don't maintain a permanent place of residence during the summer that you have to pay for." doesn't make sense.



OK.  I see my problem:

"You RMC kids do, or at least should (if you don't, there's a major problem), be paying R&Q when you're away on summer taskings because you don't maintain a permanent place of residence during the summer that you have to pay for."

 

[Lumber]

You RMC kids do (or at least should, if you don't, there's a major problem) be paying R&Q when you're away on summer taskings because you don't maintain a permanent place of residence during the summer that you have to pay for.

We pay for quarters but not rations during our summer training. However, we pay the same amount that we were paying at RMC. Now, this is kind of ridiculous because the cost of rooms is different depending on which barracks you live in at RMC. The Stone Frigate, for example, is more expensive than living in Champlain or Sauvé. So, even though me and my fellow RMC cadets (I'm sure the 25 and 26 years old's in my division would object to you referring to them as kids, Mr. Piper) were living in the same building at NOTC Venture in Victoria, we were paying a different price for our rooms.

So,

You want me to pay for rent on my place at school, plus R&Q for wherever I'm at (either on base or on the economy)  :. No way, I ain't paying for two places at once. Remember, I pay for a place all year long whereas you kids move out of your rooms after the school year ends.

Sure, while you're on course or on OJT, sublet your apartment out and use the money to pay for Quarter's on OJT, or as GW said, get an 8 month lease. Many of the fourth years who have been given the privileged of living off have 8 month leases. I haven't had to go through the effort of trying obtain a lease on an apartment, let alone an 8 month lease, so I can't say how hard it is. But if you are as eager to be able to afford going on OJT as you seem to be, then I think you could put fourth the extra time and effort to secure an 8 month lease.

 

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

OK troops, this "RMC vs Civvy U" bullshit is getting old, as is the current rent/lease/R&Q pissing contest.

Back on track, please.

The Army.ca Staff

 

[Snakedoc]

Just to clarify my earlier comment about O/NCdt's teaching at reserve units, I meant this purely for occasional use as a training tool for cadets and not a replacement for the teaching NCO's do.  Rather the focus for ROTP cadets at reserve units IMO should be on learning the admin aspects of being an officer, acting as 2IC's for divisonal/platoon officers, learning and participating in the military culture, and if possible, learning along with other reserve officers aspects of their classification in preparation for future training.

I think many options have been presented that show there are many possibilities for ROTP cadets to participate in the military during the school year.  Though I think its great that some ROTP cadets voluntarily participate during the year, there are still many that do not participate when they can.  Some on this forum have stated that ROTP cadets should primarily only be responsible for going to their civilian schools and not participating in the military during the academic year.  This despite the fact that they are full time members of the reg force military and are paid by the Crown to go to their civilian schools while reservists make this committment during the year and are also able to juggle going to their civilian schools but are not paid full time to do this.  Unless ROTP cadets who are able to participate are required to do so in a reasonable manner (and fairly compensated to do so for things like travel costs), many ROTP cadets will not do so and therefore the Crown is not getting the maximum return for the salary that is paid to ROTP cadets in turning them into capable commissioned officers at graduation.

 

[chris_log]

Just to clarify my earlier comment about O/NCdt's teaching at reserve units, I meant this purely for occasional use as a training tool for cadets and not a replacement for the teaching NCO's do.  Rather the focus for ROTP cadets at reserve units IMO should be on learning the admin aspects of being an officer, acting as 2IC's for divisonal/platoon officers, learning and participating in the military culture, and if possible, learning along with other reserve officers aspects of their classification in preparation for future training.

I think many options have been presented that show there are many possibilities for ROTP cadets to participate in the military during the school year.  Though I think its great that some ROTP cadets voluntarily participate during the year, there are still many that do not participate when they can.  Some on this forum have stated that ROTP cadets should primarily only be responsible for going to their civilian schools and not participating in the military during the academic year.  This despite the fact that they are full time members of the reg force military and are paid by the Crown to go to their civilian schools while reservists make this committment during the year and are also able to juggle going to their civilian schools but are not paid full time to do this.  Unless ROTP cadets who are able to participate are required to do so in a reasonable manner (and fairly compensated to do so for things like travel costs), many ROTP cadets will not do so and therefore the Crown is not getting the maximum return for the salary that is paid to ROTP cadets in turning them into capable commissioned officers at graduation.

And I'm arguing that forcing large numbers of untrained OCdt's on units is NOT getting the 'maximum return' for the salary that is being paid. Reservists don't get paid to go to school, but they also don't get posted...don't have to dedicated X number of years afterwards etc etc. You give a little and take a little in either route you choose to take.

I think it's a great idea to get ROTP kids attending civvie-u to train during the year (if I had a meaningful, useful job, I'd happily do it). However, I am still no convinced how it can be made to work. You provide arguments ad nauseum as to WHY it should be done, how about some explaining HOW (beyond your basic idea of 'making' them go to a reserve unit in the evenings). Imagine your HMCS getting 15-20 untrained ROTP types each year....are you telling me you could find viable, useful and meaningful work for all of them(army, navy and air force)? Somehow I doubt.

I don't disagree with the fact that it's a good idea, but it's unworkable. If it was workable, I'm sure the CF would have us do it (as I would venture to suggest that many, many people before you have expressed the same dissatisfaction with the idea of CF members going to school and not doing anything 'military' while they're there.

Sure, while you're on course or on OJT, sublet your apartment out and use the money to pay for Quarter's on OJT, or as GW said, get an 8 month lease. Many of the fourth years who have been given the privileged of living off have 8 month leases. I haven't had to go through the effort of trying obtain a lease on an apartment, let alone an 8 month lease, so I can't say how hard it is. But if you are as eager to be able to afford going on OJT as you seem to be, then I think you could put fourth the extra time and effort to secure an 8 month lease.

 

By your own admission, you know nothing about renting places. Just a bit of advice, never sublet unless you know the person very well. I've seen lots of subletting disasters occur and I would never do it. I'm also not going to seek out 8 month leases just so I can go on OJT, it's the CF's responsibility to pay for me to do what they want me to do, not me. Either way, I found an ingenious way to go on an excellent EWAT position for free. It's called Hotel Mommy and Daddy.  ;D Anyways, I'm done with this tangent. CSA 105 is right, it's silly. I just wanted to get my point across (I'm not trying to make it into a pissing contest, just showing how R&Q policies etc work differently for RMC vs Civvie-U kids and the affect that can have on summer employment).


Like I said above, I'm not opposed to ROTP types going on military trg during the year (and I believe some OCdt's in Ottawa, for example, take advantage of CFSU (O) sanctioned range days, defensive driving courses, NBCD refreshers etc). But the problem occurs with ROTP kids outside and away from major bases/units and it's not fair to push them on reserve units who are now forced to employ large numbers of OCdt's who are not properly trained to do many of meaningful things (beyond being a human coffee makers and RMS clerk assistant, the very jobs that OCdt's both RMC and Civvie-U alike are slotted into during summer EWAT/OJT and that we can all agree are a waste of time). 

 

[dapaterson]

As a person in a position of some responsibility with more admin to do than Tuesday nights to accomplish it (and weekday lunches, and weekends where my wife would sometimes like to see me) having an extra OCdt or two to supervise and task with some of the work would be a godsend. 

If many Reserve offiers can manage part-time Reserve service with full-time school, I don't see why an ROTP student couldn't as well.

Done properly, it could relieve some fo the admin burden on Reserve units, provide some hands-on experience for the ROTP students, and help build Reg/Res bridges.  Mind you, done poorly, it would just waste everyone's time.

 

[George Wallace]

As a person in a position of some responsibility with more admin to do than Tuesday nights to accomplish it (and weekday lunches, and weekends where my wife would sometimes like to see me) having an extra OCdt or two to supervise and task with some of the work would be a godsend. 

If many Reserve offiers can manage part-time Reserve service with full-time school, I don't see why an ROTP student couldn't as well.

Done properly, it could relieve some fo the admin burden on Reserve units, provide some hands-on experience for the ROTP students, and help build Reg/Res bridges.  Mind you, done poorly, it would just waste everyone's time.

That being said, what would you have an OCdt with no 'Training' do that would be productive for the Unit?  Other than giving you a hand with some of your paperwork, and as a gopher, where would you employ them?  They can't instruct.  They can't do Administrative work in the OR other than the minimal photocopy and filing tasks that they would be 'Cleared' to do.  Would they be cleared to handle Classified Docs?  If not that would preclude them from handling any Pers Files, or more sensitive docs.  Would they need maximum supervision, in effect taking a member of the Unit away from their job and in effect reducing productivity?  These are only some of the questions that a Reserve CO may be forced to ask him/herself.

 

[chris_log]

That being said, what would you have an OCdt with no 'Training' do that would be productive for the Unit?  Other than giving you a hand with some of your paperwork, and as a gopher, where would you employ them?  They can't instruct.  They can't do Administrative work in the OR other than the minimal photocopy and filing tasks that they would be 'Cleared' to do.  Would they be cleared to handle Classified Docs?  If not that would preclude them from handling any Pers Files, or more sensitive docs.   Would they need maximum supervision, in effect taking a member of the Unit away from their job and in effect reducing productivity?   These are only some of the questions that a Reserve CO may be forced to ask him/herself.

I believe a number (if not all) ROTP types are cleared 'Secret' and are able to handle the associated classifications and 'protected' levels for files.



I'm not against the idea of ROTP candidates parading/working during the year at a unit/HQ/whatever. And I know that an extra set of hands (although maybe not multiple extra sets of hands) are usually appreciated. But the idea is making it work and finding meaningful work. Just sticking OCdt's into infantry sections in a 'Mo unit isn't going to do anyone any good. And OR's are busy enough and I feel like it would almost be counter-productive having someone untrained bumping around getting in the way.

The problem I see is that 'Mo units are usually small and almost 'operational', in a way. The OR is always busy with 'real' work and are usually understaffed, which means taking time to explain and train a bunch of OCdt's would be a waste. Ditto to the infantry sections etc, they are busy training their own trained soldiers and don't have time to teach the basics to OCdt's (who at best are versed in section level tactics, usually when they are fully trained in platoon level stuff they are already done school) as well as incorporate them into the sections/platoons etc. I'm speaking from a very Army perspective, but I would guess the same rings true for the Navy and Air Reserve.

Thats why we have a training system, 'recruit' platoons in reserve units etc. People stay in those until they are fully trained and then join a unit when they have that basic level of experience. I know for a fact that reserve Pte's are only able to really start participating in their unit when they are  BMQ/SQ qualified and even then, they need their BIQ course to really function fully as a member of the unit. Ditto to any of the trades.

When I was on OJT, I was lucky to have some great guys to work with. BUT, they still had to take time away from their very busy schedules to get me up to speed. Imagine that times 5, 10, 15...etc when you get a whole bunch of OCdt's running around a unit.

Things are best the way they are. If you feel like you're being shortchanged (which Snakedoc is starting to sound like to me) or that we're getting an unfai deal, join ROTP with the associated obligations and benefits. It is what it is, ROTP candidate's job (RMC and Civvie-U) is to go to school. RMC merely appears more 'military' because they wear uniforms, live in shacks and have access to a large base nearby with the associated benefits (range days and the like). Civvie-U exists to tap into the base of people who want to be CF officers, but don't want/can't attend RMC. I personally don't need to go fuddle around my local 'Mo unit once a week and one weekend a month (there's not an insult, before anyone gets all heated, I used to be a reservist) to remind myself I'm in the CF.

I know of people who tried to parade with their local unit and either couldn't or left soon after they started because there was no work for them to do....and some who paraded quite successfully (I know of one who was an 'Assisstant Course Officer' on a weekend BMQ). It depends on the unit and what they are willing to provide, not what they can force out because they have to.

I'm not arguing against this because I don't want to do 'army' stuff during the year, I argue against it because I don't want to be a burden to someone else.

 

[Drag]

I agree with Piper.  Keep the system the way it is now.  I was a ROTP civi-U type and for me as a CELE officer parading with a militia unit would have provided minimal "value added content" from what I learned during training.  While I was in school, we had OCdts parading with militia units by choice.  They were mostly combat arms types or ex-members of those units and could contribute much more to the unit that parachuting in a bunch of aspiring MARS officers, doctors, nurses, dentists or pilots.  Our number one job during the year was to go to school.  I was in an engineering program that was pretty time intensive and had several reservist in my year....  Guess what, regular parading and duties with the unit interfeared with school.  A few went on ED&T during the school year, one went NES.  One just got his leaf so he tried to attend all the parades and Exs during the year, along with teaching BMQ every weekend, and you could see it effecting his school performance.  Eventually he took a reduced course load because he could not cope and it took him 6 years to graduate from a 4 year program, something an ROTP student could not do.

In the summers the ULO would send us on EWAT to local units.  Not having other training other than IAP and BOTP that I could take over the period of one summer, I spent quite a bit of time on EWAT, usually with about 5-6 other OCdts and found that often our supervisors would be scratching their head on how to keep us effectively employed. 

On the subject of leases:  My university of 20 000 students had about 1000 spots in residence, so it was not really an option.  I had to rent on the economy downtown Toronto and I did not find a single apartment that offered school year leases.  My rent alone was more than I would be paying for R&Q at RMC.  My first year of subsidy we did pay Rations in St Jean and it was a rough 2 months financially $700/ month for my apartment + $400 for rations, does not leave and OCdt much, even with Toronto PLD.   

 

[Gunner_Askett]

First I'd like to say that I did a search and didn't find an answer to my question.

Right now I'm in grade 11 and we just did course selections for next year.  I've wanted to go to RMC for as long as I have been thinking about post-secondary education.  Though, I'm not sure whether I should go for a fifth year of high school or not.  I plan on applying in the engineering department and I know that I need certain courses, like Calculus, to be accepted.  My main question is, Would I be more likely to be accepted if I took all the required courses and applied in grade 12 as opposed to spreading them out and applying in a fifth year?

The courses I have selected for grade 12 are:
English
French
Advanced Functions
Calculus and Vectors
Physics
Chemisty
World History
All University Level Courses

To me, that looks like it will be a very heavy workload with only one spare.  I also am in the Reserves and will probably be doing my BMQ this fall on the weekend course.  If I go for a fifth year I will probably be able to do the first summer course at Gagetown (combat engineer) which I wouldn't be able to do if I applied for RMC during grade 12.  I know attending and graduating from RMC would be my primary career goal so the reserve training is less important but I feel it would be useful to have taken at least one summer of combat engineer training as a Non Commissioned Member because one of the careers I am considering is combat engineer officer.

It would be great to get a response/responses from people who have been accepted to RMC after taking a fifth year or those who are involved in the acceptance process.

Thanks

 

[Magic]

If you really want in the RMC I suggest you finish your courses now and not prolong it. If you think six grade 12 U courses in one year is hard, wait till you get into your post secondary studies, especially engineering. You won't be able to take an extra year to relieve the work load.

good luck

 

[Gunner_Askett]

Just because something is hard or a heavy workload doesn't mean it is impossible.  You can consider something difficult but still be up to the challenge.  I thank you for your advice though, I am leaning towards applying in grade 12 but there are just a couple things that would make me consider taking the fifth year.  One being my dad, who seems to think it would be best for me but I do disagree with him on this.  Again, thank you for your advice.