Stupid question about Basic - Aggression

[scoutfinch]

"As well if you seriously injure a person during a fight, or even kill a person how would you feel knowing you ruined your own life as well as somebody elses."

- Well, you have to consider a lot of things there, but what if you did NOT kill/disable the perp when you were legally allowed to do so, and next week he went out and ran over family of five with his souped up Civic? Or raped some kid?

No offence intended, TCBF -- but I don't think any of us properly fit the role of judge, jury and executioner (notwithstanding that no one can accurately predict the future acts of a criminal let alone punish them in advance for acts yet committed).

Violence is undoubtedly a necessary evil in our society.  The key is that it be used in a disciplined manner.

 

[spock]

I agree that there are always better ways to deal with a situation than aggression. There's no sense in potentially ruining your own life because you can't control your fists... Violence should only be used when all other options are exhausted. That's my attitude I'm going to take with me to Basic.

 

[TCBF]

"Violence is undoubtedly a necessary evil in our society.  The key is that it be used in a disciplined manner"

- Agree 100%.  The operative words in my post were "... when you were legally allowed to do so ..." as the law is very clear in those cases.

"Violence is a tool of last resort, used to protect life and property."

- Life, yes.  Property?  No, but when you go to grab your property back using minimal force and the puke attacks YOU, then: yes.

 

[derael]

I stood toe to toe with numerous recruits at BMQ asking me what I am looking at or telling me they are gonna punch my face in going and alot of other people who told me they were gonna fix my attitude problem.

Never got into a fight though.

But then again I am a magnet for that kind of stuff,  throw a uniform on and it adds to the fun.

It's interesting how that works because I'm the exact opposite. Although I have seen others like yourself that seem to attract that kind of attention almost by some strange unseen force. Call it bad vibes.

It probably actually has something to do with body language, posturing and the way someone acts and reacts under certain situations...but enough speculation. I just find it interesting.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I agree that there are always better ways to deal with a situation than aggression. There's no sense in potentially ruining your own life because you can't control your fists... Violence should only be used when all other options are exhausted. That's my attitude I'm going to take with me to Basic.

It's always nice to have a good "reason" to justify violence, and the "all options exhausted" sounds nice too.  Spock, you are going to be training to be able to go into a situation where you may be asked to end the life of a young, motivated individual like yourself because he/she is wearing different clothing than you, and is on the opposite side of an area.  Can you aim your 5.56 mm with a 3x sight, put the tip on their chest and squeeze off an accurate shot in order to kill them dead?  Like Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven:  "Killin' is a hell of a thing.  You take away everything a man has, and everything he ever will have". 
Imagine you are on a check point in Kabul and there is a woman with a child walking quickly towards you despite posted gates and your verbal direction to stop.  You can see that she is wearing a green martyrs head band and has a large bulk under her burka.  In her hand (the one not holding the her daughters hand) is a black item that looks like a thumb switch.  The kill radius for a decent suicide bomb is around 50m, and she is 75m away and closing on you and your buddies at the checkpoint.  You have rules of engagement that will allow you to take her out as a result of your training without needing permission from a superior.  Again, can you take the shot?  (example not provided to create hijack of checkpoint SOP's). 
Violence in our society is not the same thing as violence in a war zone.  There are some cold, hard, terrible things you may need to get your head around being asked to do.
I realize you are doing reserve training, and there is no current requirement to serve the Regs.  However, the potential to kill on command is a characteristic your instructors will be looking for.  If you can't provide this, you may get piled on a bit.

 

[M Feetham]

Spock,
The only two things you really need to remember about basic training is one: Do what you are told, when you are told and two: always accept responsability for your actions. If you screw up say so, don't let the platoon take the heat for a mistake. 9 times out of 10 all that will happen is you get called a couple of names and have to pump off 25 pushups. As for people picking on you cause you are not overly aggressive. Most of the young recruits coming in today will challenge you to a duel on Xbox or gamecube or ps2 before they will take a swing at you. Not all but most. Soft, sorry little things. However there is the odd one who talks tuff and tries to push others around, usually if two or three people talk to him at the same time with possibly ( you didn't see this here) an implied threat of physical discomfort on their part they will fall into line with the rest of the platoon. Remember it is your platoon and if you handle the internal conflict yourselves and learn to work together early then life will be easier in the long run.
If you have any questions you can pm me.
Cheers Marc

 

[bbbb]

Discipline!

 

[canadianblue]

I never found much internal conflict within my platoon, but we had a really good bunch in 0216, much better then PRETC. If their is internal conflict, try to settle it within the platoon, it's best the instructors don't know about it, and if you screw up take responsibility and accept the punishment, its part of life. As for the violence part of being in the military, I personally am hoping that I don't ever have to kill or hurt a person unless absolutely necessary. Sure it's important to be aggressive, but I'd imagine compassion can come in handy too.

When you screw up you might feel like shit, but you'll find yourself laughing at your mistakes later on, have a good sense of humor and don't life get you down.

 

[orange.paint]

As for the violence part of being in the military, I personally am hoping that I don't ever have to kill or hurt a person unless absolutely necessary. Sure it's important to be aggressive, but I'd imagine compassion can come in handy too.

Don't recruits sit around cleaning weapons talking about killing people anymore? sounds like our new guys joined to hand out rice to refugees...wow...I guess its just the next generation who didn't watch Apocalypse now platoon etc.Remember there are always ROE'S and escalation of force but Jesus don't the instructors at least yell at you guys about being killers and stuff anymore?

wow
another thing how the hell do people on basic find time to post on this board?Sounds like some more floors need waxing to me.

 

[GO!!!]

Don't recruits sit around cleaning weapons talking about killing people anymore? sounds like our new guys joined to hand out rice to refugees...wow...I guess its just the next generation who didn't watch Apocalypse now platoon etc.Remember there are always ROE'S and escalation of force but Jesus don't the instructors at least yell at you guys about being killers and stuff anymore?

Goodness no, what if one of them was too gentle and cried?

Idiotic posts like the ones above yours exemplify why there needs to be more violence in our military, just to drive out the tree hugging-never hurt a fly crowd who thinks this job looks good on a resume.

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

Don't recruits sit around cleaning weapons talking about killing people anymore? sounds like our new guys joined to hand out rice to refugees...wow...I guess its just the next generation who didn't watch Apocalypse now platoon etc.Remember there are always ROE'S and escalation of force but Jesus don't the instructors at least yell at you guys about being killers and stuff anymore?

wow
another thing how the hell do people on basic find time to post on this board?Sounds like some more floors need waxing to me.

Nowadays, we'd probably get charged  :

 

[ZipperHead]

I think that a problem that has come up with the way that we have "evolved" (or perhaps more correctly, devolved) is that because people aren't "used to" aggression, so when it there way comes, they are incapable of dealing with it (also known as: curling up into a ball and soiling yourself).

People don't get yelled at in Basic anymore (as for as I can see), so now they are unaccustomed to naked aggression. Hmmmm..... I'm not a scientist, but wouldn't it stand to reason that there was a reason why the instructor's yelled at people, insulted them, threw things, made them do push-ups until the instructor was tired, etc??? I think it MAY have had to do with simulating stressful situations, like combat, which by definition is fairly aggressive. 

Today I heard soldiers doing pushups, as a group, yelling out the count, and I actually felt good hearing it. Controlled aggression is good. Now we just have to tell the jam tarts creating social policy that there is a place for it (in the military) so just leave us the fook alone while we train soldiers to be aggressive, so that they can deal with naked agression if/when they encounter it.

Al

 

[zipperhead_cop]

For as long as the military has trained men, they have been using a technique (even if they didn't know what it was called) of stress desensitizing.  The basic idea being if you are put under all kinds of stress in training, when you make it through the stress, you are that much closer to being able to deal with it the next time.  You see the special forces guys doing it in their drills.  Do crazy difficult crap enough times and it will be second nature.  If you have a master corporal going ape shite on you in the rain while you are trying to carry 80 lbs of crap over wet terrain on two hours of sleep a day and pull through, chances are you will have sufficient mental armour the next time he comes aboard you.  That is also why battle veterans are so much better under fire (on the whole) than raw recruits. They have been there and made it back.  If you want a link to a man who has this concept totally pegged, refer to:

http://www.killology.com/

Our peer counselling team had Lt. Col. Grossman come and do a one day seminar for us and it was just about the best thing I have ever gotten to see.  The man is so switched on as to mental mindset for battle and combatting stress.  If anyone ever gets the opportunity to go to one of his presentations, move heaven and earth to make it happen.

Short of physically beating recruits to the point of injury, I would like to see things go "old school" again with regards to discipline, with all of the knowledge and professionalism that goes with being a modern soldier.

 

[1feral1]

Just remember, your instructors are NOT there to be arseholes, they are there to teach and introduce you to basic soldiering skills. You hone them even more during your initial employment trg or whatever its called in the CF these days.

Aggression is a team sport. For now, be more concerned about your confidence (assist others if they are having some difficulties), and working as a team.

Learn to use your all your weapons effectively and to the best of your ability. Same goes as any other subject matter which is taught, whether it be drill, fieldcraft (including pers hygene), or mil law.

Just a few words from an old dog. In time everything will all become second nature, like blinking, and your confidence and assertive nature will grow efficiently, building up becomming well trained.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I just handed in my application for the reserves yesterday, but I was wondering, in Basic, will the guys pick on you if you're not aggressive? I'm 17 and a pretty gentle guy, I've never gotten into a fight ever in my life. My mom was asking about it, I told her not to worry, since it is the canadian military and hopefully they won't tolerate that kind of crap. But I still want to make sure.

74 replies later, doesn't seem like such a stupid question after all, does it?

 

[Thompson_JM]

one thing ive learned is that the only stupid question is the one you didnt ask, and should have...


Id rather my MCpl think im a little slow, and I get the job right, then have him jack me up for not completeing it properly, and not asking for clarification.

sometimes its a no-win situation, and he'll look at you like your an idiot no matter what...
Good luck though! personally speaking Im a fairly non-aggressive gentle guy myself. you will figure out where to apply agression and where not to. IMHO its a learned behaviour.

Cheers 

 

[canadianblue]

Don't recruits sit around cleaning weapons talking about killing people anymore? sounds like our new guys joined to hand out rice to refugees...wow...I guess its just the next generation who didn't watch Apocalypse now platoon etc.Remember there are always ROE'S and escalation of force but Jesus don't the instructors at least yell at you guys about being killers and stuff anymore?

wow
another thing how the hell do people on basic find time to post on this board?Sounds like some more floors need waxing to me.

I'm not on basic, I'm in PRETC awaiting QL3's. I watched Platoon, Apocalypse Now, etc. Didn't they kill some innocent civilians and rape women and children in those movies. If a person is only joining the military because they wanted to kill something become a mercenary, or something like that. People that find joy in killing I don't trust, and will never trust.

 

[ZipperHead]

I don't think that it is a question that the people here advocate enjoying killing, as I don't relish the prospect of killing someone. People that do are sociopaths. The fact remains that there has to be someone (i.e soldiers, police) that are WILLING to kill people, if the people of Canada (through their elected representatives) dictate that there are people who require that level of violence to be inflicted on them to get them to stop what it is that they are doing that we find so abhorrent (genocide, mass rapes, terrorism, etc). If one is to join the military, they are expected (unless they are a padre) to be capable of having to be capable of killing someone. Unless I missed the memo, that's pretty much all there is to it. If you are a clerk, a cook, a bosun, a aircraft navigator, if push comes to shove, you best be ready to kill. If not, get out of the military (or don't bother joining).

Does one need to be a raving lunatic in peacetime, challenging all comers to a to-the-death round of fisticuffs? No. I'm sure that some of the most effective soldiers, sailors and airmen during all the wars ever fought were quiet, reflective people who didn't care much for killing, but were able to justify to themselves, at least, that that is what was required of them (at that particular moment in time). I'm more of a fan (in film anyway) of the idea of the reluctant killer, who only kills because they have no other choice, rather than the Rambo-style "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out" mentality.

As mentioned in an earlier post, a good read is "On Killing" by Lt Col Dave Grossman. Very interesting look at how historically soldiers have been averse to killing, and it is only in modern times that militaries have become effective at creating "killing machines" (my quote, not his). His point is that we require controlled killers (police, military) not out of control killers (kids who watch too much violent media (movies, video games, etc)). Again, it is all about control and discipline.

Al

 

[GO!!!]

I'm not on basic, I'm in PRETC awaiting QL3's. I watched Platoon, Apocalypse Now, etc. Didn't they kill some innocent civilians and rape women and children in those movies. If a person is only joining the military because they wanted to kill something become a mercenary, or something like that. People that find joy in killing I don't trust, and will never trust.

I would thoroughly enjoy putting a bullet or two into Timmy Taliban as he tried to place a roadside bomb that was going to kill me and the other men in my platoon. I would feel pride that I was able to fire my weapon in defence of my nation and comrades.

I guess that makes me a sociopath - right? I personally don't give a $hit if you trust me or not - but you damn well better do your job.

Seriously, just find a job elsewhere, where you can help people, and never hear yelling or loud noises. I'll take the guys who can freely acknowledge that we are all better off with some people dead.

 

[CEhopeful]

I go to basic in may, Im 6'7, 205 and expect a lot of shit,my theory has always been to just look at them  in the eye and say "Fuck you", usually works, Im not much of a fighter, Im 21 never been in one, but I also get along with most everyone and I pull my weight.I Work the night shift at Subway next to about five bars, when I started I ahted being told I was shitty at making subs, now, I embrace it, almost enjoy it.good luck to everyone in and going to basic. this is by far one of the most useful threads I have read on here. cheers.