The Capt. Trevor Greene Thread

[Hunter]

Today one of my co-workers had the temerity to ask me how I felt about the little axe-boy f#ck's family's loss.  I couldn't believe it!!  I swear to god I felt myself go white when she said it.  There was a huge silence as people's jaws dropped at what she said, and I just walked away.  

As I write the Lisa LaFlamme's report is on CTV.  The thing that really amazes me with the situation is that it seems more than a few people in the village knew about it.  UN-real.

Something occurs to me about some of the comments in this thread.  It's been mentioned on this site that the media has quoted army.ca, and it would seem that members of the media look at this site from time to time.  Let's be careful about second-guessing the tactics used.  The headline in many newspapers today was "Military Re-thinks Afghan Mission".  The headline was later clarified in the online editions to read "Military Re-thinks Afghan Tactics".  I get the feeling the media is on a fishing expedition, and I think we can all agree that the last thing we need is a lefty paper taking some comments out of context and leading with the headline "Dissention in the Ranks".

I'm not a particularly religious guy but tonight I do feel compelled to say a prayer for Capt. Greene.  

I hope you all do the same.

Hunter out.

 

[big bad john]

A clear article on what happened.  http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/03/05/news/afghan.php

  Afghan villager attacks Canadian soldier with ax 
By Ruhullah Khapalwak and Carlotta Gall The New York Times

SUNDAY, MARCH 5, 2006


KANDAHAR, Afghanistan: In a dramatic example of the hostilities that continue in Afghanistan, despite military efforts to bring assistance to the remotest parts of the country, a Canadian soldier was badly wounded by an ax-wielding youth in a meeting with village elders in southern Afghanistan, a Canadian military press statement said Sunday.

The attacker was immediately shot and killed by Canadian troops. The soldier, wounded in the head, was reported later to be in a coma.

The soldier, Lieutenant Trevor Greene, was leading a mission in the village of Shinkay and was meeting with village elders Saturday afternoon to discuss their reconstruction needs.

"Lieutenant Greene had removed his helmet as a sign of respect, as is common practice for military personnel involved in shuras," the statement said, referring to village gatherings.

A tribal leader from the village, Haji Muhammad Isa, said the attacker was a 16-year-old named Abdul Karim, the son of a shoe repairman. Isa was not at the gathering but said he had learned of the incident from those who had been present. He was contacted by telephone.

Shinkay is in a remote mountainous region of Kandahar Province, where there have been frequent attacks on foreign troops and Afghan government personnel. Taliban forces have long operated in the region; they mount ambushes and retreat into the mountains when challenged.

The Canadian unit is part of the U.S.- led coalition force in southern Afghanistan. About 2,200 Canadian soldiers have been deployed in Kandahar.

In the commotion after the attack, villagers fled and one lobbed a grenade, but no one was wounded, the statement said. Afghan National Army soldiers who were with the Canadian patrol opened fire and fired a rocket-propelled grenade, the statement said.

The Canadian military said there were no reports of casualties from the exchange, but Haji Isa said a man, a girl and a boy had been wounded. The Afghan police returned to the village Sunday and were searching houses, he said.

He said Abdul Karim was not a member of the Taliban, nor was anyone in his family, and he helped his brothers working on their farm. "He was a very quiet boy and not talkative," he said. None of his family had been arrested or killed to give any reason for revenge, but Americans had searched the village several times, he said.

Greene was evacuated by helicopter and was operated on at the Kandahar air base before being transferred to the U.S. military hospital at Landstuhl, Germany.

Two Canadian soldiers died this week when their vehicle overturned in an accident. Another soldier was wounded in a suicide bomb attack.

In the neighboring province of Uruzgan, attackers burned two trucks of food belonging to the World Food Program that were destined for poor families in a remote village.

Across the border in Pakistan, heavy fighting between Pakistani troops and militants continued through the night but seemed to die down Sunday as hundreds of people were reported to be fleeing.

The fighting has been some of the most serious since the army started to root out foreign fighters from bases in Waziristan two years ago, and the government appeared to have lost control, for a few days, of Miramshah, the main town in North Waziristan.

Telephone lines remained cut and reports were sketchy, but an army spokesman, Major General Shaukat Sultan, claimed that the militants, both tribesmen and foreign fighters, had been forced to retreat from Miramshah, The Associated Press reported.

The fighting had been raging for several days since an army raid on a militant training camp on Wednesday. Militants and their supporters attacked Miramshah, seizing control of the telephone exchange and other government buildings and firing rockets and missiles at the government compound and army base outside the town. Fighting was also reported in the town of Mir Ali.

Sultan said 46 militants had been killed in the four days, as well as five soldiers, but it was impossible to verify the casualties independently. The Associated Press reported that at least two civilians had been killed.

Carlotta Gall reported from Islamabad.

[Edited to remove multiple copies of same article]

 

[MikeL]

Soldiers tell harrowing tale of Afghan ambush
CTV.ca News Staff

A Canadian military officer believed an ancient code of honour would protect himself and his colleagues when they sat down for a routine tribal meeting in an Afghan village.

But after witnessing an axe-wielding assailant attack his fellow officer, he feels he has been proven wrong.

Capt. Kevin Schamuhn says his faith in the unwritten rule of the shura, that a guest must be welcomed and protected, has been corrupted.

"Everything I've been taught about Islam, everything I've been taught about the Pashtun code of honour, has just completely been defiled in a horrifying way," Schamuhn told CTV's Lisa LaFlamme in Afghanistan.

Capt. Trevor Greene was conducting a shura, a meeting with village elders meant to promote peace, when a teenager pulled an axe from his coat and struck him in the head.

"I can expect someone shooting at me. I can expect someone throwing a grenade at me, as weird as that sounds ... I'm ready for that. But someone taking an axe and attacking someone like that ... that replays in our head," Sgt. Rob Dolson said.

Greene had removed his helmet as a sign of respect as he sat down Saturday to discuss reconstruction needs with elders in Shinkay, a village 70 kilometres north of Kandahar.

Soldiers routinely lay down their weapons and remove their helmets as a goodwill gesture. But it's a gesture the military is now re-evaluating.

When asked if he would take his helmet off again, "probably not," Dolson was quick to respond.

While the soldiers had been trained to engage the enemy at close range, the attack on their colleague was shocking all the same.

"Things slow down, events like that everything seems to be in slow motion but yet fast at the same time," Pte. Matt McFadden said.

But their shock was fleeting. Schamuhn and McFadden instinctively responded by firing their weapons and killed the teen.

"He attacked a Canadian soldier and that's all I thought of, we responded," said Dolson.

Canada's Task Force in Afghanistan said the man who attacked Greene was a Taliban insurgent.

However, an Afghan elder has reportedly disputed that claim, saying the attacker was a 16-year-old boy with no Taliban connections.

Haji Mohammed Eisah told The Associated Press that Abdul Karim was upset at the U.S.-led coalition's heavy-handed tactics and insensitivity to tribal traditions.

"You can't tell who is and who isn't ... Well they don't go running around with Taliban party cards that says they're Taliban. They could be anyone," Dolson said.

Meanwhile, the Canadian military is reviewing tactics in Afghanistan after its first week leading coalition troops ended with two soldiers killed and the axe attack.

Col. Tom Putt, deputy commander of Canadian forces in Afghanistan, says strategists are currently re-examining procedures involving driving habits and security measures for meetings with local leaders.

"Undoubtedly we are going through a process of understanding security," Putt told reporters. "We have to keep (meeting local leaders). It's how we do it that we don't know yet."

Col. Michel Drapeau, former director general for the Department of National Defence, said soldiers "learn some very hard lessons in the first few days or weeks of an operation."

"You're not quite sure which way the enemy is going to be acting. In this case, there's a psychological shift required on the part of the soldiers," Drapeau told CTV's Canada AM Monday.

"They've been trained for the past 50 years as peace keepers. Now they're into a war setting and they have to look at every individual they cross .. as a potential enemy."

With a report from CTV's Lisa LaFlamme

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060306/axe_account060306

 

[m410]

Haji Mohammed Eisah told The Associated Press that Abdul Karim was upset at the U.S.-led coalition's heavy-handed tactics and insensitivity to tribal traditions.

Tribal traditions like the sanctity of the shura? 

 

[silentbutdeadly]

ok for the people who question my level of security at such events and my level of leadership because that is what your doing! Sum the F**k up! your not here! i am out there for weeks on end in those hills fighting these people. the security was there and the boy was sitting in on this . maybe next time we will just shoot everyone instead of the leader of the village hows that? for all the people who support us thxs! my section did a great job better yet an awesome job and people who question it i have no respect! Oh ya and tell me when your coming over here and actually leave the gates! The BS by the villagers that he was upset , i guess he was but to attack a man. well he got his just due. We never since i have been here kicked in doors and hurt there women and i have been on around 5 cordons of towns., so like the majority of the edlers in that valley there Liars! enough said  cheers and God Bless Capt Greene!

 

[geo]

In the paper today, an "elder" of the village spoke up, says that the axman was not taliban but rather a 16 yr old that was angry and frustrated with US and ANA tactics & procedures.... (US = kicking in doors, searching women&kids)(ANA= occupying homes and stealing the little they have)... claims that this was spontaneous.

He didn't explain why the kids dissapeared a couple of minutes ahead of "the deed" and he didn't explain what that ambush firefight from across the river.......
Who do you believe?

 

[Franko]

Please limit this thread for updates on the incident.




For best wishes and support to Capt Green and his family:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40650.0.html


For support to the troops in KAF:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40651.0.html


Regards

 

[commando gunner]

Apologies-not an update but something I believe is v important wrt this thread (I wrote it earlier but the thread was locked as I posted it)

ok for the people who question my level of security at such events and my level of leadership because that is what your doing! Sum the F**k up! your not here! i am out there for weeks on end in those hills fighting these people. the security was there and the boy was sitting in on this . maybe next time we will just shoot everyone instead of the leader of the village hows that? for all the people who support us thxs! my section did a great job better yet an awesome job and people who question it i have no respect! Oh ya and tell me when your coming over here and actually leave the gates! The BS by the villagers that he was upset , i guess he was but to attack a man. well he got his just due. We never since i have been here kicked in doors and hurt there women and i have been on around 5 cordons of towns., so like the majority of the edlers in that valley there Liars! enough said  cheers and God Bless Capt Greene!

I am not convinced that getting actively involved in a public site like this after being personally involved in such an incident is a good idea - excellent performance by all concerned notwithstanding.  Dealing with opinionated people arguing or speculating from the comfort of what could in fact even be a civilian job in the homeland with absolutely no concept of what you are going through is not what you -or the Canadian Forces - need.  Neither is open argument in public with someone who was present about what was or was not done before during and after any incident involving the CF until proper investigation has occurred.

S but D - this is not aimed at you at all but is a point in general.  Good job all concerned on that one.

Also earlier posters have commented on the press monitoring of this site.

 

[Franko]

Just to reiterate:

Critiques of the troops on the ground and their actions on this incident will not be tolerated.

The next one who does will be put on the warning system.....

The last thing the troops need is for some armchair general, safe and sound in Canada, calling into question their judgement on their actions.

We weren't there....we have no right to, period.

The only people who can are the troops who were involved.....and I'm sure they feel the same way.

Regards

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Today one of my co-workers had the temerity to ask me how I felt about the little axe-boy f#ck's family's loss.  I couldn't believe it!!  I swear to god I felt myself go white when she said it.  There was a huge silence as people's jaws dropped at what she said, and I just walked away.  

You don't think the kid's family felt a loss?  He was 16 according to one report.  Why would it anger you that someone might consider our enemies to be human beings?  He didn't ascend to the planet from the seven circles of Hell. He was a human being acting on some sort of stimulus - stupidity, anger, misinformation, chemical imbalance, criminal impulse, blood lust, confusion - we simply don't know why. But to call him a "sick f***" does nothing to address the fact that these incomprehensible acts are probably a lot more comprehensible once you stop demonizing people and start trying to figure out what makes them tick.  Never heard the expression "know your enemy like you know yourself?" 

Personally, people stupid/brave (hard to tell where the line is drawn) to fly jetliners into buildings or to bring an axe to a gunfight scare the shit out of me.  I'd be far more interested in reading an analysis of their culture - from the guys that are there and dealing with these people day in and day out - than in what the Canadian media has to say about it, or a bunch of ranting here about how "they" are subhuman or something.  These "random acts of violence" are becoming more common and pretending they happen in a sociological vacuum only puts more lives at risk. 

Then again, Franko is right - we are all just armchair quarterbacking - I'd say lock this thread til something substantive comes up.  The namecalling really doesn't add anything either to our image or to the site.

I guess those doing the namecalling are just as scared of these people - it's a natural reaction.  The more understanding we try and give them, the less scary they become - and the easier it will be to defeat them.

 

[big bad john]

I second the move to lock this thread up for now. It is time for a short "cooling off period".  It is just turning into a rant by a misguided few out to second guess the men on the line.  And that my friends is something we should never do!

 

[Kirkhill]

As much as I regret that comments made on this site by some individuals could be used to reflect negatively on the CF,   this site and its members (Edit: and more critically could cause distress to family and friends of those directly involved) I don't think this thread should be locked.

I think that it is much better that the comments are allowed some oxygen so that they can be rebutted where necessary.  The moderators are doing a reasonable job of keeping this discussion within bounds.
 
One of the advantages of a place like this, IMHO, is that it allows individuals to speak their minds, an opportunity not always available to people in any organization let alone a military organization.  If the thoughts don't come out into the open, if the people they work with don't see where they are "coming from", then they might not get the expected reaction from that individual at a time of crisis.  Perhaps it is better that these discussions happen before people are confronted with the crises.

Edit: Perhaps some of the more egregious statements could be censored or deleted.

We all just have to remember to keep it civil and polite all the while remembering the needs of security.

My 2 cents.

 

[Haggis]

Franko is bang on.

Before you (and I mean the royal "you", no one in particular) post any more reasoned dissection of the event, consider this:

Silentbutdeadly and his troops had but a split second to recognize, analyse and react to the incident and deal with the aftermath.  You've all had three days.

Unless you were there, or have PERSONALLY had a similar encounter (that didn't occur on a TV screen or GameBoy), I suggest you sit back and think through any potential commentary.  To do otherwise could compromise OPSEC or serve to embolden those who would do us harm.  AQ and the Taliban have internet access, too.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Ok, well this being the case, I want to respond to Tess - yes, the troops did what they were paid to do - ie restored order to a dangerous situation by unfortunately having to use lethal force to bring down an individual who - by virtue of the fact he was armed and hostile and had just attempted to murder an unarmed soldier who was "under a flag of truce" so to speak - had identified himself as a combatant.   I think it goes without question that they did the right thing.  My reference was that we have no idea what led up to the situation and giving out congratulations prematurely would be just as wrong as heaping scorn prematurely.  Basically I'm inclined to personally STFU about procedures altogether for the reasons indicated.

But I do think that the death of a 16 year old boy, no matter what the circumstances, will always amount to a tragedy.  Surprised and saddened to see others feel differently.

 

[big bad john]

Franko is bang on.

Before you (and I mean the royal "you", no one in particular) post any more reasoned dissection of the event, consider this:

Silentbutdeadly and his troops had but a split second to recognize, analyse and react to the incident and deal with the aftermath.  You've all had three days.

Unless you were there, or have PERSONALLY had a similar encounter (that didn't occur on a TV screen or GameBoy), I suggest you sit back and think through any potential commentary.  To do otherwise could compromise OPSEC or serve to embolden those who would do us harm.  AQ and the Taliban have internet access, too.

We all have seen mentioned in other threads that the media and the "Powers that be", frequent this site, and that we all should be aware of this when postings.  Haggis brings up a good point, I would not be surprised if the occasional hostile lurked on these pages.  So please beware of what you are posting on this site

 

[the 48th regulator]

They stopped the nutcase from axing anymore, and fought off any further attack from the others.

I would say that Franko's comments were correct..

dileas

tess

Huh?

I thought they did a superb job....

Did I miss something?  My only vocal opinion was the fact that a few armchair Generals first cast doubt on the Canadian citizen's attitude, and then another allusion that something was done wrong, hence the attack. 

I called both those poster on backing their off the cuff statement.

Sorry if I was misread...

dileas

tess

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Huh?

I thought they did a superb job....

Yes we agree that the situation seemed to be handled well as it unfolded.  I think the discussion was on what led up the situation in question - which we have been advised not to discuss any further (a sentiment I agree with).  As Franko pointed out, no one is in a position to judge that.  I was merely suggesting it would be premature not only to condemn, but to praise also.  Both are forms of judgement, and both are beyond anybody's ability to be fair and accurate right now.

 

[the 48th regulator]

and then another allusion that something was done wrong, hence the attack.

Ahh, I see,

Which was why I was asking the person, with no actuall experience, that made the comment regarding the security, to stay in his lane.

We are all in agreeance then regarding not commenting unless,

a) you were there, or
b) have been in this type of situation before.


dileas

tess

 

[Mignault.J]

Im happy to report that i have gotten word that Trevor's condition has improved, how it has improved im not sure but he is doing better
thanks

 

[muffin]

That's Great! Thanks for the update!