The Defence Budget [superthread]

[Sub_Guy]

I'd even take it a step further and move 1 CFFTS out of Winnipeg and put it in either Comox or Greenwood too.  Lots of potential in all of those ideas (that will never happen IMO).

Well the AES Op training could be handled in Greenwood, considering the CP-140 and CH-148 are going to end up with very similiar mission computers, I am not saying the MOAT/OTU should be combined, but the basic AES Op training
could all be done here, that way when it came time for the MOAT/OTU the individual would already have a solid grasp on the basic operation of the mission computers.  Heck you could simulate the entire basic AES Op course, and hold
off flying them until the MOAT/OTU.

 

[George Wallace]

I don't know how many millions they spent renovating and insulating all the buildings at Kapyong Barracks in Winnipeg AFTER they moved everybody to Shilo and had it shut down.....there were little $$ signs floating above each building just remind everyone it was their tax dollars at work (humor, in case you weren't sure)......

Brand spanking new Hangar and Mess Hall in CFB Summerside and within a year -- CLOSED.

The list of such excessive spending on infrastructure and improvements to Bases prior to their CLOSURE and sale of prime real-estate, often for the grand sum One (1) Dollar, is long.  If one wants to look at the monumental waste of "Tax Payers' Dollars", that list should be referenced.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Well the AES Op training could be handled in Greenwood, considering the CP-140 and CH-148 are going to end up with very similar mission computers, I am not saying the MOAT/OTU should be combined, but the basic AES Op training
could all be done here, that way when it came time for the MOAT/OTU the individual would already have a solid grasp on the basic operation of the mission computers.  Heck you could simulate the entire basic AES Op course, and hold
off flying them until the MOAT/OTU.

Pretty much exactly what's be talked about in the crew rooms a few times, as well as the possibility of moving Gonzo to the Wing for the IAQC/flying phase or just doing a ground school (BAQC) and then going on to MOAT/OTU...and getting Wings after passing (like the FEs).  Another topic was the merit of having all folks go LRP first tour and then sending folks MH (once the Cyclone is at the Op Sqns) like was done in the past.

But, moving MH Sqns to 'LRP Wings' and TEs around costs money, and jobs in the locale's they'd be leaving.  Money and politics.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Leave the Gonzo in Winnipeg, an AES Op really doesn't need to fly prior to a MOAT/OTU.  This would lighten the load for the Gonzo, plus it would cut the AES Op positions down in Winnipeg, saving money on moves.

The argument of having them fly just to see if they can fly doesn't really hold any merit, because if that was the case all potential AES Op's would fly prior to heading to 1 CFFTS, and when
was the last time we lost someone to chronic motion sickness?

 

[Lightguns]

Doubtful that there will be any real base closings this time.  They are looking for immediate savings, closing bases requires movement of people and property with a return in later years.  Expect a downturn in activity, maybe we will all practice a little light infantry for a year or drive the ship in a simulator.  The key area to save money is still the mini empires of the NCR bandits but that is unlikely to happen. 

 

[Edward Campbell]

Closing Borden gets debated every decade or so. When I was sill serving it was the Air Force that wanted to have three super-bases (Groups?) at Cold Lake, Trenton and Bagotville and the thought (if it even qualified as that) was that technician training in Borden and Kingston would be combined (probably a good idea) and then split into Anglo and Franco streams (probably not a bad idea) and then moved to Cold Lake and Bagotville. The Army was "on board" (if that's not overstretching the expression) with splitting Log training and moving some to Gagetown, some to Halifax/Esquimalt and some to Trenton (also, probably some sense in that notion, too). EME, as I recall, was considered for a move to Quebec, somewhere ~ sometimes proposals to move things to (or from) Quebec are all based on a 23% factor.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Leave the Gonzo in Winnipeg, an AES Op really doesn't need to fly prior to a MOAT/OTU.  This would lighten the load for the Gonzo, plus it would cut the AES Op positions down in Winnipeg, saving money on moves.

The argument of having them fly just to see if they can fly doesn't really hold any merit, because if that was the case all potential AES Op's would fly prior to heading to 1 CFFTS, and when
was the last time we lost someone to chronic motion sickness?

So, back to ABATS basically.  Move the positions to you guys, and add BAQC to your "can do" list.

"Whats old is new again"  ;D

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Closing Borden gets debated every decade or so. When I was sill serving it was the Air Force that wanted to have three super-bases (Groups?) at Cold Lake, Trenton and Bagotville and the thought (if it even qualified as that) was that technician training in Borden and Kingston would be combined (probably a good idea) and then split into Anglo and Franco streams (probably not a bad idea) and then moved to Cold Lake and Bagotville. The Army was "on board" (if that's not overstretching the expression) with splitting Log training and moving some to Gagetown, some to Halifax/Esquimalt and some to Trenton (also, probably some sense in that notion, too). EME, as I recall, was considered for a move to Quebec, somewhere ~ sometimes proposals to move things to (or from) Quebec are all based on a 23% factor.

Understood, and I've heard talk of Borden and Meaford closing before, but I dont understand why this base, and not lesser value bases, is discussed for closure. With it's location and "reasonably" large training area (roughly equivalent to Valcartier) it could be a fantastic location to promote the CAF to Canada via the 5 odd million people in Toronto and 10 odd million in southern Ontario. Plus it's a base that a significant number of people would like WANT to go to (unlike Shilo, Suffield, Wainwright, Cold Lake, Goose Bay, Gander, etc). Certainly, having a posting option close to home for people from Toronto, Kitchener, London, etc would help in recruiting some people from the golden horseshoe who may not want to move to Gagetown or Shilo.

 

[George Wallace]

Understood, and I've heard talk of Borden and Meaford closing before, but I dont understand why this base, and not lesser value bases, is discussed for closure. With it's location and "reasonably" large training area (roughly equivalent to Valcartier) it could be a fantastic location to promote the CAF to Canada via the 5 odd million people in Toronto and 10 odd million in southern Ontario. Plus it's a base that a significant number of people would like WANT to go to (unlike Shilo, Suffield, Wainwright, Cold Lake, Goose Bay, Gander, etc). Certainly, having a posting option close to home for people from Toronto, Kitchener, London, etc would help in recruiting some people from the golden horseshoe who may not want to move to Gagetown or Shilo.

Besides these reasons, the location of the CAF Ammo compound and all the Schools, Borden is also the Support Base for Meaford (which is just down the road).  [Edit to add:]  We mustn't forget Blackdown and all the Cadet facilities....... ;D

I can imagine that there could be some backroom political shenanigans with land developers for the prime real-estate Borden offers as a potential developer's dream to build a Sub-division for Toronto commuters, close to Wasaga Beach, Blue Mountain Resorts and Ski areas, and the other surrounding resorts and of course cottage country. 

 

[Old Sweat]

Before I would consider closing Borden I would want to see a detailed plan showing where and how we would duplicate the training done there. I also would want to see the costs associated with the move including associated construction and what that would do to the DND budget over the next few years. At first blush my reaction is "that dog don't hunt!"

As for George's point re developers, let them pay the range clearance bill for both Borden and Meaford. Back circa 1972 there was a push to close Meaford put forward by the locals for environmental reasons, but the real reason was that a bunch of the local movers and shakers wanted to develop it. DND was prepared to see it become a nature preserve closed to the public, but the locals were firm that it should be given back to the local municipality. When told about the range clearance issue and that to guarantee their safety, it would have to be bulldozed down to bed rock, their enthusiasm waned and they decided they could live with the status quo after all.

 

[dapaterson]

Calls to close Borden are loudest from the combat arms community (and their RCAF and RCN ilk) who have not given it much thought, other than "It's not shiny and pointy, and I don't understand it, so we should close it."

Frankly, if we want to increase bang for the buck, Edmonton would be a more logical base to close, moving 1 CMBG to Wainwright so they are co-located with their training area.  Of course, that would not be popular as spousal employment would be orders of magnitude more difficult.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Calls to close Borden are loudest from the combat arms community (and their RCAF and RCN ilk) who have not given it much thought, other than "It's not shiny and pointy, and I don't understand it, so we should close it."

Frankly, if we want to increase bang for the buck, Edmonton would be a more logical base to close, moving 1 CMBG to Wainwright so they are co-located with their training area.  Of course, that would not be popular as spousal employment would be orders of magnitude more difficult.

That's the glory of Borden... a Bn sized element (or perhaps 4 AD/4th Regiment, GSR) could be moved there and the spouses would have MORE employment opportunities (and entertainment, etc) than in Gagetown or Pet. This would make retention easier. It's a rare case that offers the benefits of a city with the provision of a training area

 

[FortYorkRifleman]

The budget allocated to the CAF annually doesn't cover procurements, right? Its primarily for salaries, maintenance, training and operations I imagine.

 

[dapaterson]

Incorrect. Defence capital procurement is included in the defence budget, as either A-base or accrual funding.

 

[dimsum]

I can't agree with the Cold Lake closure however, I would offer closing Pat Bay and Shearwater and moving those Sqns (443 and 423) to Comox and Greenwood.  Of course, this will never happen now that new facilities have been built in both PB and SW. 

No reason all of the 'maritime air' folks couldn't be co-located on 1 Wing per coast.  I'd even take it a step further and move 1 CFFTS out of Winnipeg and put it in either Comox or Greenwood too.  Lots of potential in all of those ideas (that will never happen IMO).

Agree that moving MH to the RCN and letting them sort it out is a great idea, but something to consider is that the single RAN helicopter base is in Nowra, ~200km from Sydney (Fleet Base East) and a few thousand km from Rockhampton (Fleet Base West.)  So, the idea of moving MH to Comox and Greenwood may not be a totally ridiculous idea. 

Alternatively, there's the (admittedly much lower) possibility of moving the LRP sqns to Victoria and Halifax International Airports.  Of course, that is politically a non-event.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Or we could prune Headquarters.  Dramatically.

Just saying.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

If we ever close Borden before dismantling CDA, I will lead the torch-light parade to the Hill.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Agree that moving MH to the RCN and letting them sort it out is a great idea, but something to consider is that the single RAN helicopter base is in Nowra, ~200km from Sydney (Fleet Base East) and a few thousand km from Rockhampton (Fleet Base West.)  So, the idea of moving MH to Comox and Greenwood may not be a totally ridiculous idea. 

Alternatively, there's the (admittedly much lower) possibility of moving the LRP sqns to Victoria and Halifax International Airports.  Of course, that is politically a non-event.

Can't do it. No DLAs.

 

[McG]

If we want to play with base closures and rearrangements, I would get CFC out of Toronto and I would consolidate all the 1 CMBG units to a common base. 

Or we could prune Headquarters.  Dramatically.

Just saying.

There is the right answer!  Aside from CDA, let's not forget the CADTC/CTC silo of excellence.
Do we get our money's worth from 1 Cdn Div?
Does the East coast really merit its own Div HQ? 

 

[dimsum]

Can't do it. No DLAs.

DLAs?