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The Defence Budget [superthread]

Designated loading area.

CYYJ and CYHZ are too small and too encroached upon by civilian areas to accommodate either a bomb dump or place on the airfield to load weapons.
 
MCG said:
If we want to play with base closures and rearrangements, I would get CFC out of Toronto and I would consolidate all the 1 CMBG units to a common base.  There is the right answer!  Aside from CDA, let's not forget the CADTC/CTC silo of excellence.
Do we get our money's worth from 1 Cdn Div?
Does the East coast really merit its own Div HQ?

I wrote service paper suggesting moving CADTC from Kingston and 5 Whatever its called from Halifax, to Gagetown and combining them in a single HQ commanding Army training and Atlantic Area.  This would make all militia in 5 Whatever into demo troops for Army training on a rotational basis.  It received some interesting responses, some not so polite.  Not as bad as my "only tour experienced troops should occupy positions in the training system that touch on the design and delivery of training" idea. 
 
Lightguns said:
I wrote service paper suggesting moving CADTC from Kingston and 5 Whatever its called from Halifax, to Gagetown and combining them in a single HQ commanding Army training and Atlantic Area.  This would make all militia in 5 Whatever into demo troops for Army training on a rotational basis.  It received some interesting responses, some not so polite.  Not as bad as my "only tour experienced troops should occupy positions in the training system that touch on the design and delivery of training" idea.

Lightguns, no wonder...you were trying to halve the number of Army 2-stars in Kingston.  For as much as folks like to bash on the RCAF, at least there is only a single 2-star commanding the entire operational air force Canada-wide, and the training authority is only a 1-star. 

Regards
G2G
 
General Disorder said:
Just in case you were wondering, it's back on...

New_cold_war.jpg


And it may end up rescuing the defence budget from the slow, steady decline which Prime Minister Harper knows the people of Canada want.
 
Once the government has a balanced budget come 2015 what will happen with the CAF's budget in regards to maintenance, training, exercises and procurements? Harper, given his recent rash of remarks condemning Russia, ISIL etc seems to point to an increase in spending, right?
 
Boy, with all the significant changes in the international situation it sure sounds like a great time to re-examine our foreign policy and defence policy, eh? 

I won't hold my breath.
 
GR66 said:
Boy, with all the significant changes in the international situation it sure sounds like a great time to re-examine our foreign policy and defence policy, eh? 

I won't hold my breath.

One can only hope, but hope is not a plan.
 
E.R. Campbell's theme is again repeated in the media:  Defence spending does not pay-off for Canadian politicians, because it is not important to Canadians.  This article goes farther and hings that it does not gain anything for the nation from our allies. 
Harper no big defence spender – and gets away with it
Campbell Clark
The Globe and Mail
08 Sep 2014

When it comes to defence spending, the old Stephen Harper wouldn’t recognize the new one. The new one looks at lot more like Jean Chrétien.

Mr. Harper came to office believing that bigger defence spending paid off in terms of influence, particularly in that most important capital, Washington. But he’s since decided that the results are not worth the extra billions.

It all seems so incongruous. Last week, Mr. Harper announced that Canada is sending up to 100 special-ops advisers to fight the jihadi Islamic State in northern Iraq, and dispatched a frigate to U.S.-Ukraine military exercises in the Black Sea, designed to send a signal to Russia.

At the same time, Mr. Harper brushed off demands of his biggest NATO allies for bigger defence spending, pushing back against U.S. and British efforts to have allies commit to larger defence budgets.

That’s not really unusual, in the historical sense. Canadian prime ministers have in the past calculated that they can afford to leave some of the burden of defence spending to larger allies. And others, like Mr. Chrétien, handed the Canadian Forces a medley of tasks while squeezing their funding.

But in Mr. Harper’s case, it’s the product of lessons learned on the job.

Back in 2008, when he unveiled his government’s Canada First Defence Strategy, Mr. Harper criticized his Liberal predecessors for the so-called “decade of darkness,” when military spending was cut in the 1990s.

“Even as new conflicts erupted in Africa and the Balkans and elsewhere, our military was starved and neglected. They kept getting new responsibilities but not the tools to keep them going,” Mr. Harper said then. He promised to provide stable defence spending increases, expand the forces and buy new equipment. He argued nations that don’t spend on their military aren’t taken seriously.

His government had increased budgets. But it didn’t last. One reason was the financial crisis of 2008-09. Another was misadventure in Afghanistan. It seems clear he also decided that increased defence spending wasn’t really buying Canada clear influence on the world stage, or in Washington – or at least not enough to justify political sacrifices at home.

Under the Conservative government’s 2008 strategy, defence spending was supposed to be about $22-billion this year, 2014-15. Instead, it’s one-fifth less, $18.15-billion in accrual accounting terms, according to Defence Department documents.

Adjusted for inflation, spending is now lower than in 2007, according to David Perry, senior security and defence analyst with the CDA Institute. In other words, it is essentially back to Liberal levels. Compared with the size of the Canadian economy, it’s less than it was in Mr. Chrétien’s tenure, at about 1 per cent of GDP.

What changed? When Mr. Harper took power, George W. Bush was U.S. president, prosecuting two wars, and it seemed reasonable to argue Canada’s influence depended on military burdensharing. But Barack Obama disengaged from wars. Mr. Harper found a sizable role in Afghanistan didn’t necessarily pay with NATO allies. It’s not clear that increased defence spending earned extra influence with Mr. Obama – it certainly didn’t transfer to a cherished file, the Keystone pipeline.

Of course, in theory, defence spending isn’t supposed to be quid pro quo. Canada is supposed to share the burden of global security. But Canadian prime ministers don’t face major domestic threats, and bigger allies can be counted on for global ones. They’d usually rather spend the extra billions at home.

When crises come, Canadians often want their country to play a part, and allies request it. Mr. Harper, like Mr. Chrétien, asks the military to send modest contingents to hot spots, while budgets are shaved. Mr. Harper argues, rightly, that it’s not how much you spend on the military that counts. Allies care about who is willing to contribute, even modestly. But that calculation only lasts so long.

Politically, it’s long enough. Mr. Harper’s government has pushed back spending on training and new equipment, so one day soon Ottawa will face a big spending crunch, when things like jet fighters and navy frigates have to be purchased – though not until after the next election.

In the meantime, Mr. Harper has apparently learned what Mr. Chrétien knew: that he can afford not to spend big on defence.
 
One of the big problems with the average Canadian's viewpoint is their reliance on "bigger" allies. We are a G7 country. There are not a whole lot of people "bigger" than us. The US isn't better able to afford a strong military than we are, they just spend money they don't have. They believe a strong military is important, so they fund it. They might not be doing it in the best way but at least it gets done.

We don't need the size the US does but we need to step up to the plate. There is a reason Canada sits at the kiddie table internationally and it has nothing to do with our economy.  100 advisors isn't much of a contribution. Our allies know when called we will fight... With the smallest contribution possible.

If we doubled the effective strength of the CAF to around 100k and provided equipment less than 20 years old, we would be able to contribute in meaningful numbers and be seen as such internationally. Time and time again, Canadian Forces members have proven they can do more with less but this is getting ridiculous.


Edit: I would also like to point out that we still have much of the same equipment we had during the "dark decade" of the 90s.
 
Tcm621 said:
One of the big problems with the average Canadian's viewpoint is their reliance on "bigger" allies. We are a G7 country. There are not a whole lot of people "bigger" than us. The US isn't better able to afford a strong military than we are, they just spend money they don't have. They believe a strong military is important, so they fund it. They might not be doing it in the best way but at least it gets done.

We don't need the size the US does but we need to step up to the plate. There is a reason Canada sits at the kiddie table internationally and it has nothing to do with our economy.  100 advisors isn't much of a contribution. Our allies know when called we will fight... With the smallest contribution possible.

If we doubled the effective strength of the CAF to around 100k and provided equipment less than 20 years old, we would be able to contribute in meaningful numbers and be seen as such internationally. Time and time again, Canadian Forces members have proven they can do more with less but this is getting ridiculous.


Edit: I would also like to point out that we still have much of the same equipment we had during the "dark decade" of the 90s.

Agree, but try selling that to the average Canadian. 

From the news, etc we get compared to Australia a lot, which isn't really fair.  I've said this before, but Australia knows it's the big "western" country in Asia-Pacific region and has a defence budget to match.  NZ, on the other hand, now essentially relies on Australia for air cover, amongst other things.

Canada is essentially the NZ to the US's Australia, and short of getting hit on home soil (which I hope never happens), Canadians won't change their attitudes towards defence spending. 
 
Many people still see us as peacekeepers and only peacekeepers, so the idea of the military procuring tanks, fighter jets etc is distasteful to them. The problem is also our greatest asset: America. On the one hand, they'll watch out for us given that we're their our neighbor but on the other hand the general Canadian population feels that their military might and prestige mean we have nothing to worry about.
 
Tcm621 said:
We don't need the size the US does but we need to step up to the plate. There is a reason Canada sits at the kiddie table internationally and it has nothing to do with our economy.  100 advisors isn't much of a contribution. Our allies know when called we will fight... With the smallest contribution possible.

In terms of "advisors" - ie the only real boots on the ground, our contingent is larger than any other ally - and we offered them faster than anyone else.  We are more than doing our fair share in this case.
 
As I have said elsewhere, I do not see the path to Canadian economic health as being through defence spending.  However, I do think we need more investment in defence.  Conrad Black calls for just that here:
The path to a richer Canada goes through our Armed Forces
By Conrad Black, National Post
20 Sep 2014

...

This country should do better [economically]. Combining economic facts with the case I tried to make two weeks ago about the desirability of Canada being a more plausible source of firm leadership in the Western Alliance, which has been reduced virtually to cobwebs by the irresolution of most of its traditional members, particularly the United States, the economy could be stimulated, unemployment reduced, and credibility conferred upon the purposeful foreign policy remarks of the prime minister and foreign minister, if we expanded our defence capability. We are down to 15 functioning navy ships and 15,000 people in the army. The Air Force is in somewhat better condition, but could be stretched seriously if the Russians start in earnest at their old game of consistently flying up to, and slightly in, our air space.

The prime minister recently told an inquiring journalist that he did not think increased military expenditure justified, but I don’t think he has thought this through. Air force expansion could be projected in a way that landed Canada a position in military aircraft consortia greatly exceeding what we now get. Shipbuilding, which this government has promised for eight years but not delivered, backs very conveniently into steel and other industries, and all the armed forces are a boon to high technology industries. Expansion of personnel would facilitate adult education and career training, as the United States, in particular, has shown.

This is a rich country and we are all in the West forced to accept the reality of a substantial American retrenchment in the world. That country carried us all on its back for decades, and no one should forget that the defence of Canada was successful in the Cold War because of the American guaranty of Canada’s territory, given originally by FDR at Kingston, Ont. in 1938. While the United States sorts out what it is prepared to continue to do in alliance terms, the Europeans and ourselves are going to have to account for more of the burden. Paul Martin indicated a willingness to do this, but left office before he could do anything about it.

As has been written here and elsewhere, Canada had one or two aircraft carriers from 1943 to 1970, and has had none since. Helicopter and VTOL (vertical take-off and landing) carriers, with amphibious and command capability are available from France and the Netherlands, and probably the United States also. Everything is available, including the prospects of a resulting shot in the arm in terms of economic consequences and national morale, for Canada to grow into the role the prime minister’s righteously strident foreign policy assertions indicate a desire to play.

The same investment would greatly increase the country’s ability to respond to natural disasters around the world. In straight political terms, as an election year approaches, supporters of the armed forces are a much larger and more reputable constituency than the Conservatives’ knuckle-dragging Neanderthals of the jail’em, flog’em, hang’em sub-culture being extravagantly pandered to with infamous crime legislation promising the erection of redundant prisons that will largely be occupied by native people who don’t belong there.

There is little point in Stephen Harper slagging off Justin Trudeau for his vapid reflections on the “root causes” of terrorism if his own reaction to the same acts is perceptive bellicosity unsupported by any ability to participate usefully in an effective Alliance response. (The six aircraft we sent to Poland to encourage Ukraine have been redirected to Balkan countries not under threat, and in such a high-stakes game are only a token and a solo gesture in any case.)

The Canadian electorate is not a vast kindergarten that can be propelled into transports of gratitude by pre-electoral distributions of its own money. It may be too late to do much that is original in this parliament, but a believable disposition to pursue economic growth responsibly and to match military capabilities to bold words in sensible strategic spending over time would be welcome in itself, and would be popular. But no one should imagine that another empty promise of imminent rearmament will be seen as anything but the production of a still-born rabbit from a tattered hat.
 
MCG said:
As I have said elsewhere, I do not see the path to Canadian economic health as being through defence spending.  However, I do think we need more investment in defence.  Conrad Black calls for just that here:
I think utilized properly defense spending could be a huge boost to the economy.  3 capital ship projects (jss, ddg replacement, ice breaker) would inject billions into the ship building industry and all the feeder industries.  the same goes for new airplanes.  An increase in the military of say 10000 adds 10000 new middle class jobs for people who spend and get taxed (that's almost 20 thousand dodge rams, snow mobiles, motorcycles, etc). As well as added support staff.

Would it not be a cure all but it would be a solid economy booster that could help pave the way for others.

Imagine the benefits for communities if they had to reopen Chilliwack, Cornwallis, etc. to support the increase in military size?
 
Ref: http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/eisenhower-warns-of-military-industrial-complex, 28 Sep 2014

I believe that Canada should develop and sustain a suitable Canadian military industry, but we should heed the warning by President Eisenhower who warned of the military industrial complex.

From the above ref:

"Eisenhower cautioned that the federal government's collaboration with an alliance of military and industrial leaders, though necessary, was vulnerable to abuse of power. Ike then counseled American citizens to be vigilant in monitoring the military-industrial complex. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."
 
Happy Guy said:
Ref: http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/eisenhower-warns-of-military-industrial-complex, 28 Sep 2014

I believe that Canada should develop and sustain a suitable Canadian military industry, but we should heed the warning by President Eisenhower who warned of the military industrial complex.

From the above ref:

"Eisenhower cautioned that the federal government's collaboration with an alliance of military and industrial leaders, though necessary, was vulnerable to abuse of power. Ike then counseled American citizens to be vigilant in monitoring the military-industrial complex. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

A powerful military-industrial complex might be an issue for a nation that pumps almost 5% GDP through its programme, but as sub-1%, it would likely not come close to being a significant concern in Canada.
 
I was one of the project management staff for one of the larger Army capital projects.  I painfully remembered getting telephone calls and emails requests for meetings from regional government officials who demanded to know of the potential regional economic benefits that a certain defence contractor, who submitted the winning bid (including outline of Canadian economic benefits) and how they can get a their fair share or more than their fair share.  A lesson learned for me - regional economic benefits can outweigh the military requirement for having their needs met first.
Slightly less than 1% GDP for defence spending, of which roughly 25% is for capital procurement, is still a lot of money.
 
Tcm621 said:
I think utilized properly defense spending could be a huge boost to the economy.  3 capital ship projects (jss, ddg replacement, ice breaker) would inject billions into the ship building industry and all the feeder industries.  the same goes for new airplanes.  An increase in the military of say 10000 adds 10000 new middle class jobs for people who spend and get taxed (that's almost 20 thousand dodge rams, snow mobiles, motorcycles, etc). As well as added support staff.

Would it not be a cure all but it would be a solid economy booster that could help pave the way for others.

Imagine the benefits for communities if they had to reopen Chilliwack, Cornwallis, etc. to support the increase in military size?

Sad to think when a glorified Frigate and supply ships are considered "Capital Ships"
 
Happy Guy said:
I was one of the project management staff for one of the larger Army capital projects.  I painfully remembered getting telephone calls and emails requests for meetings from regional government officials who demanded to know of the potential regional economic benefits that a certain defence contractor, who submitted the winning bid (including outline of Canadian economic benefits) and how they can get a their fair share or more than their fair share.  A lesson learned for me - regional economic benefits can outweigh the military requirement for having their needs met first.
Slightly less than 1% GDP for defence spending, of which roughly 25% is for capital procurement, is still a lot of money.


There are no such things as regional economic benefits. There are regional "offsets," but, rest assured, we pay at least 100% for each and every one - usually more than 100%.

There are three fundamental laws of engineering in DND projects: F=MA, you cannot push a rope, and there is no free lunch.

That is why, at least many years past it was why, ADM(Mat) insisted that Industry Canada coughed up the cash for "regional benefits."
 
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