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Responses to "Co-op program called death sentence"

It does not surprise me that a comment like this comes from a teacher. For the most part, teachers are a good group of people. But there are also the ones that have no idea what goes on in the real world because they live their whole life in a bubble. They are born and stay with mommy until they start school. They stay there until they graduate high school, university and teachers college. Then they return to the world from whence they came until they retire at age 55+. School. A sheltered institution where they are not allowed to think outside the box and hide from the evils of the world and get summers off and can't understand why everybody else doesn't. (this is a true statement as I had it out many times with teachers)

I have served with many teachers and only a few were worth their salt. Fortunately the rest all quit when General Vernon as CMA Commander changed the rules so many years ago.

So let these idiots say what they want. We know the truth and I am willing to debate any political correct teacher any time.
 
Well, by virtue of what these crackheads say, I should be a gorked out pot head with serious munchies for granola and an ecoterrorist; after all,  I was an environmental studies major when I was at UVic.  I mean, isn`t that what all save the whales types are like?

MM
 
It is obvious this individual did not do there homework.
The only time was in 1944 when troop level require to finish the 2WW that subscription was  done.
Canadian Forces is totally volinter and the best trade soldier because
we are jack of all trades for a small force.
In both 1st and 2nd WW we proof that we could get the job done.
The lack of information on our CF is very poor to the average citzen.
Canadians :cdn: saw our troops in Manitoba and Quebec Provence during the Flood of the Century. Also the freezing rain storm down east.
 
desertfox115 said:
It is obvious this individual did not do there homework.
The only time was in 1944 when troop level require to finish the 2WW that subscription was  done.
Canadian Forces is totally volinter and the best trade soldier because
we are jack of all trades for a small force.
In both 1st and 2nd WW we proof that we could get the job done.
The lack of information on our CF is very poor to the average citzen.
Canadians :cdn: saw our troops in Manitoba and Quebec Provence during the Flood of the Century. Also the freezing rain storm down east.

i'm going to guess english is not your first language....
 
desertfox115 said:
It is obvious this individual did not do there homework.
The only time was in 1944 when troop level require to finish the 2WW that subscription was  done.

Speaking of doing one's homework:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Service_Act

Canadian Military Service Act

The Military Service Act was a Canadian statute that introduced conscription during World War I.

On May 18th, 1917, Canada's Prime Minister Robert Borden made an announcement in the House of Commons that aggravated the already tense relationship between the French and English people of Canada and would cost the lives of many Canadians. Borden explained that Canada would begin registering and conscripting men for the Great War. In the House every French-Canadian MP voted against conscription and virtually every English-Canadian voted for it. The majority won and the Military Service Act became law on August 29th, 1917.
 
Grade 11 Sandwich Secondary student Brittany Fleming said she decided to attend the meeting because of how strongly she disagrees with the program.

"It's too disciplined, too scary," said Fleming about the military. "They beat it into you so you don't know what you think anymore. You're not a person anymore. You're just a machine."

Fleming said she doesn't know what kind of response the program had at her high school, but she's sure there are students who will be drawn to it. "People who want basic things like money and health care will end up going for it. And I'm worried that it will happen to my friends."

It's too disciplined, too scary!

I'm a machine, Roar!
Ex-ter-min-ate, Ex-ter-min-ate

Teachers who try and push their views on students are assholes.
My feminist English teacher [don't say manhole cover its sewer cover, dont say rifleman its rifle person, dont say history it sounds too much like his-story]  refused to let me take my exams Early because she didn't agree with the idea of students being allowed in the reserves. She believed their is no longer any need for "grunts".  I had to wait an extra year to do my QL3, point for her.  That said I've personally interested more than a dozen students and teenagers in the CF and got them into uniform. I win.

Still a very stupid article IMHO. God forbid young students make their own decisions and earn their own living and not ride on mommy and daddies coat tails.
 
Grade 11 Sandwich Secondary student Brittany Fleming said she decided to attend the meeting because of how strongly she disagrees with the program.

"It's too disciplined, too scary," said Fleming about the military. "They beat it into you so you don't know what you think anymore. You're not a person anymore. You're just a machine."

Fleming said she doesn't know what kind of response the program had at her high school, but she's sure there are students who will be drawn to it. "People who want basic things like money and health care will end up going for it. And I'm worried that it will happen to my friends."

Nice,

Hope she has the gonads to show up this November 11th to the local parade or legion, and spout off those words.

Too disciplined, too scary, not a person anymore, just a machine....

Well it was the to disciplined, scary, non-human machines, that served, fought, and died for these people to spout such nonesense..

dileas

tess
 
Ghost778 said:
Ex-ter-min-ate, Ex-ter-min-ate

You have to admit, in the early 80's Daleks had a creepy, killer disco garbage can aura about them.  :eek:

I would not be piling on the Windsor Star if this was an isolated incident.  But this stuff happens all the time.  And in this day and age of people having no spine and being so horribly terrified to be viewed as anything but pastel and PC, this kind of thing can do harm, rebuttal or no.  The tale of the tape will be when it is time for this to come up again next year, and lets see if the schools are so open to having an army recruiter come by because they are worried "about any trouble".  That is where the harm lays.  Those little hits to the middle level bureaucrats who are so terrified of getting a "complaint".  OH, GOD, NOT A COMPLAINT!!!
You guys who are worried about taking on the big bad paper because it can harm the CF's relationship with them; don't be fooled.  They print good things because that is what they feel like on a given day.  The rag I looked at in the Pioneer gas station today was about as thick as a Pennysaver (which, conversely, is chock full 'o' bargins!).  If an incident occurs involving a member, even if it was not even remotely linked to the CF, don't think that they won't smear "SOLDIER INVOLVED IN X, Y, AND Z" first chance they get because of any great "cultivated" relationship.
 
A scene earlier today in Winsor.....

daleks.jpg


Their commander (pictured here) had little comment...

Resurrection%20of%20The%20Daleks.jpg


;D

Regards
 
C&P Crusader said:
A scene earlier today in Winsor.....

daleks.jpg


Their commander (pictured here) had little comment...

Resurrection%20of%20The%20Daleks.jpg


;D

Regards

E&K Scots?

Cool kilts!  ;D
 
As the recruiter left the school, it was noted that a blue telephone booth shortly therafter disappeared...

http://www.dwwa.net/dr2/Highlanders/Hightard.wav

In all fairness to the WIB, this is an excerpt from the recruiting speech:

http://www.dwwa.net/dr4/Genesis/rant.wav

So you can see their dilemma ;D
 
My,  but there is a lot of defensive reaction to any suggestion that the military solution is rarely a solution to anything with the possible exception of contributing to the death and injury of mainly young and impressionistic people.  It may or may not come as a surprise to members of army.ca that not all Canadians are quite so keenly supportive of the war making project, particularly as far as it concerns the Middle East and South Asia.  Nearly 2500 American lives have been sacrificed, not to mention 17,000 wounded, by an administration that had no cause whatsoever to invade Iraq.  Historical attempts by, for example, England in the 19th century and the Soviet Union in the 20th to invade and occupy Afghanistan suggest that there is more than a little reason to worry about Canadian Forces deployment in that country by a government that appears not to have thought much about the mission.

Yes, there is a place in the world for the warrior.  There also is a place for those who question whether high school is the place to indoctrinate people in the science and attitudes of war fighting without balancing that indoctrination with information that war is an outmoded method of solving problems.
 
coachron said:
...  there is more than a little reason to worry about Canadian Forces deployment in that country by a government that appears not to have thought much about the mission.

Yes, there is a place in the world for the warrior ...

You're right on both points, coachron:

1. The Liberal Party of Canada and successive Liberal governments since 1957 have rarely given any thought about any military missions.  The Party’s goal has been to starve the military in order to shove social pabulum down the insatiable maw of the Canadian public; and

2. Warriors in the 21st century, as in the 1st, are, by and large, young men and women – very young, still boys and girls when I see them though these tired old eyes – usually still in their teens when they take up arms, sadly many are still in their teens (or not far past) when they pay the ultimate price.

As to the utility of the military solution and Canadians' reaction thereto: I believe you are correct.  I suspect that a substantial majority of Canadians are completely ignorant about the state of the world beyond North America – that’s why they want us to invade Sudan and kill a bunch of brown-shirt wannabees called the janjaweed.

I, at least, am not at all defensive about the Canadian military and what it can and should do in the world.  Quite the contrary, in fact; I am an aggressive advocate for more and better military capabilities to give the government of the day options when the big, bad world intrudes, again and again, upon our peaceable kingdom’s interests.  I am equally an advocate for a sound elementary education in Canada – which would address the problem of most Canadians being pacifistic dupes.

Edit: sentence structure and punctuation - these "tired old eyes" are really old and tired this morning!
 
coachron said:
war is an outmoded method of solving problems.

:rofl:

I love that false idol of progress....
 
If an incident occurs involving a member, even if it was not even remotely linked to the CF, don't think that they won't smear "SOLDIER INVOLVED IN X, Y, AND Z" first chance they get because of any great "cultivated" relationship.

This, sadly, is always true. While it is definitely possible (and, I think, a good policy) to treat the media fairly and honestly, the apparently understanding and sympathetic reporter whose name and face we get to know on operation is, in the end, subject to the daily whims of the editors who will decide the required "spin".

Cheers
 
coachron said:
My,  but there is a lot of defensive reaction to any suggestion that the military solution is rarely a solution to anything with the possible exception of contributing to the death and injury of mainly young and impressionistic people.  It may or may not come as a surprise to members of army.ca that not all Canadians are quite so keenly supportive of the war making project, particularly as far as it concerns the Middle East and South Asia.   Nearly 2500 American lives have been sacrificed, not to mention 17,000 wounded, by an administration that had no cause whatsoever to invade Iraq.  Historical attempts by, for example, England in the 19th century and the Soviet Union in the 20th to invade and occupy Afghanistan suggest that there is more than a little reason to worry about Canadian Forces deployment in that country by a government that appears not to have thought much about the mission.

Yes, there is a place in the world for the warrior.  There also is a place for those who question whether high school is the place to indoctrinate people in the science and attitudes of war fighting without balancing that indoctrination with information that war is an outmoded method of solving problems.

Coachron:

Like any profession, we reserve the right to defend ourselves against scurrilous, ill-informed, or distorted commentary. Further to that, in our particular case we learned, decades ago, that we must shoulder much of the burden of telling our own story, and trying to keep the public we serve informed with facts as opposed to half-truths, and mindlessly repeated chants that sound good at the Student Union but don't cut much ice in the real world.

The Co-op program exists across Canada (I was involved with it in NW Ontario, Manitoba and Saskatchewan) and has been in existence since at least the late 90's: long before most Canadians could even find Afghanistan on a map. Its acceptance by such a diverse range of school boards suggests to me that it is seen as a valuable program.

If you accept that a state has a right to secure its own defence externally and to have a monopoly on the use of armed force internally, then you more or less accept the premise that the military should exist as a part of the nation, just as the police service or the fire service. It seems to me that you also accept that violence and lethal force can be applied in legitimate service of the aim of society and the state. (If not, you negate the first premise...)

So, if we are a legitimate part of this country, then we have the same rights as any organization to make ourselves known to Canadians. Since Canada relies on a volunteer professional force, we must recruit to survive and be that legitimate agency the country needs. It also follows that we should fill our ranks with the best people we can obtain. In a society such as Canada, with its alarming ignorance of things military, and the prominence (not to say dominance) of certain vocal anti-military groups, we start out from a disadvantage. Therefore, we need to be creative in our methods. Co-op is one of these creative methods.

If a school board, on its own free will (which is how it works, by the way...) decides to admit the Co-op program, we will make use of that opportunity. To do otherwise would make no sense.
To assume that the students (or, for that matter, the school board) do not know what they are doing, or are somehow "dupes" of the military is too fantastic to credit. Although, I guess it is consistent with the viewpoint that the military is filled with mentally deficient high-school drop outs. I mean, why would "real people" ever join the military when unemployment is so low, right?

Finally, I doubt you will find too many people serving in the military today who are so myopic as to view the military as a "solution" to much of anything, any more than we might view the police as a "solution" for crime, or welfare as a "solution" for poverty. All complex situations (like Afghanistan) require multi-pronged solutions, combining all of a nation's powers and abilities.(Just as Canada is involved on several fronts in developing Afghanistan to be a successful state) In some situations (like stopping the more obvoius activties of the Taleban and friends), the use of deadly force against those who are violently opposed to the shape of  the solution is an important component. It is not the only component, and all by itself it may not be productive, but it is an important tool. And, by the way, the endless repetition of  the cautionary tales of the British Empire and the Soviets in trying to conquer Afghanistan is largely misplaced, since neither NATO nor the US Coalition is trying to "conquer" Afghanistan. (There are not near enough troops there, for a start...) And, in most of the country,(at least when I was there in 04/05) ISAF and the Coalition are not viewed as enemies as they are in the Pashtun south.

Where we in the military (specifically, in our case, the Army) come in is as the national component responsible for the controlled and reasoned application of deadly force, or at least the believable show of the ability to use that force. In order to do that, we have (at the mos basic level) to train people to kill and survive attempts to kill them. If we don't do that, we're not effective. If we're not effective, then we have failed Canada and we are not meeting the first two premises. Since what we do is physically and mentally demanding on several levels, it makes sense to start entry-level training at an age when people are likely to have the stamina, fitness and enthusiasm to be good professional soldiers. That means recruiting younger people, most of whom in Canada are in some form of school.

So, if we are to exist and be effective, we need to recruit young Canadians in school. Co-op is one way to do that (and only one way...only a  percentage of Co-op students pursue the military as a career). It lets young people get a taste of the military (with no real committment), while completng an important stage of their education: two useful and important natinal goals. But, if school boards don't want us, we won't be there. We'll do the best we can, somewhere else.

Cheers
 
We need young people with heads on their shoulders.  If we don't get these people our outfit will be heading way down hill.   You can see it now people in your reg, sqn, shop, platoon whatever.  People who you know really were recruited from the bottom of the barrel.  If this bottom of the class recruiting continues we will start seeing more issues on deployments like the yanks.  Soldiers going out for revenge killing civi's and they wont forget Abu Grabe for awhile.  If we want soldiers, sailors and Airmen to make the right choices we need them to be mentally capable too.

I firmly believe that the majority of people in the CF are better citizens because of the training we receive.  This country would be much more socially conscious and see a much lower crimerate if every 18 yo kid was put in conscription out of high school for 6 months.

:cdn:
 
Navy: I don't know where you've served, but after 32 years, I can safely say that these useless people are in the minority. "Bottom of the barrel" people usually aren't much good for anything and don't stick around too long. I do admit that we have some, but in the last decade or so I would say that their numbers have greatly declined. Compared to most of his peers around the world, the Canadian soldier stands out for intelligence, intiative and level of education.

Cheers
 
>war is an outmoded method of solving problems.

If that were true, there would be no genocide.  War is in fact perceived by some to be a very expeditious means of solving problems.  Contrarily, alternatives to war have a notably poor record of thwarting or opposing war, otherwise we should have expected matters in the Sudan to have been wrapped up nicely years ago by people employing those alternatives.

On the main topic, the press have been vehement recently as to their role in society and the nature of their profession.  Regardless how one might feel about the particular methods used by the Windsor paper to initiate and conduct debate over community issues, the broader point is inescapable: as long as the press lay claim to professionalism, society has the right to demand the press behave professionally.
 
coachron said:
Yes, there is a place in the world for the warrior.  There also is a place for those who question whether high school is the place to indoctrinate people in the science and attitudes of war fighting without balancing that indoctrination with information that war is an outmoded method of solving problems.

I appreciate that at least your profile indicates that you have no military experience, although your post clearly indicates that. 
Lets suppose someone was going around and telling our youth through the media, particularly at a job fair, that GTA teachers are a bunch of shiftless hippies that have no grasp on life or world events, and if their brand of unfounded pap were to extent to the world, as it has infected the GTA and ruined the concept of common sense there, our planet would be slave to the whims of zealots and dictators everywhere.   I would have to believe that a group of the affected would speak up and try to present a more balanced view of their profession. 
As long as there are pacifist malcontents, there will always be soldiers to defend their delicate, Jergens softened back sides. 
Have fun abusing your freedom.
 
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